Wehrmannshaften tunic

[remcovanurk]

Dear all,

A Wehrmannshaften tunic is offered to me, but unfortunately the seller is not able to send me photos (old man), so I've to inspect the tunic by myself at his place.

The only info I've got about the tunic is that the it has blue collar tabs, the left one with 3 stars and the right one with an edelweiss, the shoulderbords are white/silver.

Who can give me some tips on how to determine if this tunic is original? Or does anyone already have some ideas what the collar tabs and schoulderbords mean?

Thanks!

-Remco

[sgstandard]

Wehrmannschaften

The uniform should be olive-green with silver buttons. Collar tabs are in the color of their respective SA group, and should have the Sturm number of the SA Group on the right patch. If the tunic has 3 pips, it's a Sturmfuhrer, and the tunic should have 2mm gold or silver piping around the collar tabs and 3mm gold or silver piping around the collar. The 2 shoulderboards are standard 2nd pattern SA boards, and should consist of 8 rows of white or yellow acetate twist cords with a colored underlay. The Wehrmannschaften colored underlay for enlisted men was either GRAY, BLUE, or YELLOW. I'm not sure whether the officers used the same underlay code, or the standard SA underlay codes. Dark brown belt with NO cross strap, and aluminum-colored Wehrmannschaften buckle.

[remcovanurk]

Thanks for the information! This is very helpfull for me!

How rare are these uniforms? Because there isn't a lot of information on the internet about these uniforms...

The person who's offering me this tunic, is also offering me the trousers and boots. What would be a reasonable price for the whole uniform? (please send me a PM if you don't want to mention the price here )

Thanks!

-Remco

[wewelsburg]

Edelwiess on tab?

[remcovanurk]

Edelwiess on tab?

Hi, yes, the edelweiss is on the tab. That's what the seller told me, I didn't saw the uniform by myself yet...

-Remco

[David North]

SA Wehrmannschaften

Near useless for good uniform detail, however here is a period studio photograph of three chaps, the fellow in the middle wearing an SA-Wehrmannschaften uniform to include the very distinct buckle.

Regards,

David

[remcovanurk]

Hi David,

Thanks for the interesting photo! It´s very hard to find photo´s of the Wehrmannschaften on the internet, so your photo is very appreciated!

I hope to pick up the uniform tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. I´ll place photo´s of the uniform when I´ve picked it up.

-Remco

[Erich B.]

The Wehrmannschaft uniforms are not easy to find, but when they come up they're not big dollar items. I've seen several tunics and pairs of trousers for sale over the last few years for sale and they don't seem to bring much more than a regular SA wool tunics.
The Edelweiß tab would be interesting to see. By the time the Wehrmannschaft had a specific uniform there were no groups permitted to wear an Edelweiß collar tab. I recall there had been several instances where the issue was addressed by the OSAF in their bulletins in the earlier 30s.
Erich

[remcovanurk]

I've picked up the uniform today..What are your thoughts?

I'm sorry for the crappy photos, my photocamera is still not working

[sgstandard]

Tunic

The collar should have white piping like that on the shoulder boards, or silver twist-cord. The collar tabs should have the same piping, but thinner, if I'm correct. I can't find any Wehrmannschaften regulations that designate an edelweiss on the collar tab. Usually, it would have the unit designation. If it's a "Mountain" unit, shouldn't it be LIGHT blue for gruppe Hochland? If you decipher this color to be "Cornflower", then the gruppe would be Warthe. Is that a mountain area? The shoulderboards are correct for this rank. Also, the aluminum-colored pips are correct as well. (Pip color was dependent on rank). I'd love to see what the backs of those tabs look like - I'm far from a Wehrmannschaften expert, but IMO, there's a good chance this tunic is a put-together.

[sgstandard]

Wehrmannschaften

After looking again - the color could be OK for Hochland - but still, there are questions about this tunic that need answered. The Wehrmannschaften wore long pants, except for mounted personnel, and I also believe they wore high ankle black shoes. Of course, boots would have been worn with breeches. Unless the Wehrmannschaften officers disregarded collar and collar tab piping regulations, like I said, something's not kosher.

[remcovanurk]

Thanks for the quick reply!

I´ve totally no knowledge about the regulations about tab piping, but to me the tabs don´t look to be re-applied (but I'm only a amateur )

Frow when were the tab piping regulations introduced?

[sgstandard]

Wehrmannschaften

The shoulderboards on your tunic were introduced in 1938/1939 and were the same as worn by the SA - with the addition of aluminum or gold colored pips, depending on how high the rank. Your shoulderboards are correct for the rank of the collar tabs (Sturmfuhrer), and should NOT have any pips. The regulations concerning collar tab and collar piping are identical to the SA. These SA regulations were always in place, regardless of the year. The material of the piping for officers DID change at one point, from the metalllic twist-cord seen on early uniforms to a material like the cords on your shoulderboards here. SA officer's brownshirts and tunics are scarce, so they need to be scrutinized carefully. MOST collar tabs are hand-stitched to the uniform, though some were machine sewn. Pips generally were NOT pierced through the collar like these are. The pips look brand new, as do the collar tabs. This in itself does not mean it's not authentic. Looking at the rank tab - it's just too tidy or perfect, but the MAIN issue is the lack of officer piping. Unless the dealer can explain why it's missing, I'd send it back. If someone here knows Wehrmannschaften regulations beyond what I've stated, please chime in. The Wehrmannschaften was under the control of the SA - thus the same or similar regulations. Enlisted Wehrmannschaften DID wear the same collar tab piping as the SA, in white or yellow rayon, and period photos show this. The officers should have collar and tab piping as well . Note: The Wehrmannschaften was formed in January, 1939.

[remcovanurk]

Hi Sgstandard,

Thanks for all the information!

I contacted the seller, I´m now waiting for an explanation from him.

To be continued...

[Erich B.]

Sorry for the late reply. Does the tunic have an RZM label==on Wehrmannschaften tunics it's usually under one of the belt support hook straps. If so, the color of the tunic is probably the olive color of the Wehrmannschaft. Do the breeches match in color? The tunic appears to be an issue piece while the breeches are tailor made. The boots are not correct for this tunic and are similar to those worn by pupils in training schools, but not the same. My guess is that the tunic was an unissued piece or was issued and worn without insignia (as documented in photos) and was subsequently, more recently, decked out with the tabs and boards. The breeches may or may not have been married to the tunic, and the boots are not related. Depending on the price, it might still be worth picking up the group.
Erich