Help on early SA armband with pip & Litze

[zbv500]

Hi all,

This armband along with a bunch of other things was recently found in the house of a former Ortsgruppenleiter that was torn down. I just wondered if it is an Ortgruppenleiter armband or whatever ? The pic was also found with the band and the other stuff.
Can you tell me what this armband represents exactly ?

Many thanks, Jens

[sgstandard]

Armband

I've seen an armband with the gold center stripe attributed to an SA High Leader. Angolia's SA book says the metal pip designates the commander of a company.

[zbv500]

Thank you dear Sir.

That would confirm along with its position in the Sturm. Still it would be great to see any reference to this armband. Can the armband be dated to a certain time frame ?

Thanks, Jens

[sgstandard]

Armband

According to Jill Halcomb's SA book, "The first form of insignia worn by the early SA was the Sturmbinde worn by the Ordnertruppen of the early 1920's. Since the early SA had no established ranks, only the Group leader was designated by a GOLD STRIPE in the center of his sturmbinde. The "Zugfuhrer" wore two silver stripes, the "Hunderschaftsfuhrer" three stripes. The "Regimentsfuhrer" wore four silver stripes on his armband.

[zbv500]

Thanks alot for the additional info on the armband. Its much appriciated.

Jens

[Wim Vangossum]

I like to say it's a wonderful item! I mean, how many of these old versions have survived? Together with the picture it is awesome.

Regards, Wim

[zbv500]

Thanks Wim I also like it very much. Is it just me or is he wearing a black tie in the pics ? Wouldnt this mean SS ??

Jens

[sgstandard]

Armband

I agree - nice item!! - The uniform in the photo is definitely SA, due to the bi-color collar piping. I've alos seen early Political Leaders wearing a dark tie like this with their brownshirts. I also found a photograph of a guy wearing the armband with the 2 SILVER STRIPES. To give you an idea of the era, he's wearing a greatcoat, and an early SA style kepi with what looks like a cockade (and possibly a skull). He's wearing a bayonet with a troddel, and has a pistol holster. He's surrounded by guys with army uniforms, rifles, packs, and Stahlhelm helmets and Nazi armbands. It appears they're either Army or Freikorps.

[sgstandard]

Ss?

I thought that it was maybe SS at first, but the piping doesn't appear to be black and white. It would be interesting to know exactly what color the piping is in that photo. Since there are no collar tabs, the photo probably dates prior to 1926, which (I believe) is the date of introduction of SA collar tabs.

[zbv500]

The piping on his colar is most probably green/white for saxony as he was the group leader of a small village here in my area (Saxony).
The first medal on his bar is also a Saxonian badge (Frederic August medal)

Thanks for clearing the SS thing up.

Nice to know that the armband dates around 1926 or before. Start to love these early items.

Jens

[zbv500]

By the way, I have another pic of him with another armband and with strange colar patches. They look like black/white/red while the middle section looks to be a former coloar litze ?

Any ideas on these ?

Jens

[sgstandard]

Uniform

He's wearing a Political leader's uniform with 1st pattern early 1933 period insignia (Shoulder straps were eliminated in late 1933). This pattern insignia was introduced early in 1933, so the shoulder straps were only worn for a short time. Depending on the color of his collar patches, he could have been an Ortsgruppenleiter (brown), Kreisleiter (brown), Gauleiter (red), or Landesinspekteur (crimson). Brown collar tabs were worn with shoulder straps with silver cord. Red or crimson tabs were worn with gold shoulder straps. During this era, they also wore a diamond patch on the upper left sleeve with a political eagle on it.

[sgstandard]

Uniform

MY MISTAKE - I listed "Kreisleiter" among the ranks he could be, but this was in error. The same collar tab and shoulderboard design was used for 3 political positions. ORTSGRUPPENLEITER- (Local Group-Leader - silver embroidery with a red center stripe on a brown patch & 2 shoulder straps made of silver cord), GAULEITER - (Gold & orange embroidery with a red center stripe on light red patch, and gold cord shoulder straps, with orange collar cord. LANDESINSPEKTEUR - (As above, but crimson patch.

[sgstandard]

Uniform

A last note - You mentioned at the beginning that the fellow was possibly an Ortsgruppenleiter. This is a Political Leader position. The armband you posted is probably SA, as the photo shows, but Political leaders also wore armbands with stripes, but I believe they were usually white or silver. Angolia's SA book on page 61 shows Gauleiter Karl Wahl wearing a Political leaders shirt with 2 center stripes (probably silver) on his armband and a round pip just like yours in the center of the swastika.

[ETN]

Very nice armband! From a construction stand point, it's interesting to see the ribbon material used to make the swastika. There are few collectors that claim that the Germans NEVER used this kind of ribbon on armbands. But here we see it used on an original armband with provenance. So much for "collector wisdom".