Blood Order for sale

[TxGauleiter]

Brian Maederer has a Blood Order...

I am not a candidate, but what is the verdict from our Blood Order experts?

could someone post pics permanently to this thread?

http://www.militarycollectiblesinc.c...t_Code=me01133

[Jon Fish]

Original second pattern medal with lots of finish remaining. There must have been a quantity of these un numbered second patterns discovered at wars end that came back with GI's.Other theories are they are doubles [but there is no evidence people could get a double,apart from some well known recipients] or doubles given to families who's recipient family member was KIA and the medal not recovered[could then be used on the funeral pillow etc] There is a thread here on WAF debating this,a fellow member also has an un numbered example.There was also some rumours that these un numbered examples mostly 'became' numbered post war by dealers wanting to 'upgrade' and make the medal more attractive to collectors,however I have never seen physical evidence of this or any strange number fonts that I can recall on original medals out there.
As it is un numbered it obviously cannot ever be identified.The potential for identification is for me one of the reasons I became so interested in the blood order.
So it could be a nice medal for a collector with multiple examples as a variation but I would suggest not really the best piece for you if your just after one representative Blood Order for your collection.
It's priced about right and you could get some ribbon for around 250-400 .
Not for me but it will serve someone a purpose I'm sure.

[TxGauleiter]

great information, thanks

[der-hase-fee]

Another one being offered:

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_id=4431

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_name=upl5546.jpg

[ErichS]

Another one being offered:

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_id=4431

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_name=upl5546.jpg

Another nice 2nd pattern.
I agree 100% with Jon on the unnumbered example. IMO, they were probably extra unissued stock at Wars end.

[Jon Fish]

Another one being offered:

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_id=4431

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&pic_name=upl5546.jpg

Nice and original but well overpriced.

[Jon. H]

Nice and original but well overpriced.

Is this the one you used to own Jon?

http://www.1939.ru/?action=catalog&item=4281

[Jon Fish]

Certainly is Jon.So thats were it turned up ! a few thousand more than I sold it for last year.
Only a handful of those second patts and docs out there though.

[JoeW]

Jon, do you consider the smaller Besitz-Urkunde to be less often found than the large Urkune in the full folder?

[Jon Fish]

Jon, do you consider the smaller Besitz-Urkunde to be less often found than the large Urkune in the full folder?

Hi Joe. Yes that is the case.The larger one in its folder was a presentation piece and kept at home. The smaller red oilcloth one shown was a document that needed to be kept on the recipients person when wearing the medal or the ribbon to prove the right to wear the order. I have a mint one and a couple of worn ones. Whats interesting is that it was possible to get replacements of the document,I have two in my collection that are second issue docs [interestingly both for first pattern medals] where the original holders doc had worn out.
That is why the brown first pattern docs are so hard to find,replacements so it would seem would be of the red style.
Of course the small red document[with name and issue number and date] can tie a second pattern medal to the doc and make a set.But with the large doc there is no medal issue number ,only the date and name.This makes it impossible to 100% verify a document corresponding to the medal.You can get a good idea by the issue date and name but thats it.The simple large 1st pattern doc is also without issue number so you need the small doc again to prove a matching set.
Of course a 'true' set comprises the large doc,small doc and the cased medal.
I would say prob 2 large docs out there for every small one,roughly speaking.

[JoeW]

Hi Joe. Yes that is the case.The larger one in its folder was a presentation piece and kept at home. ........Of course the small red document[with name and issue number and date] can tie a second pattern medal to the doc and make a set.But with the large doc there is no medal issue number ,only the date and name.This makes it impossible to 100% verify a document corresponding to the medal.You can get a good idea by the issue date and name but thats it.The simple large 1st pattern doc is also without issue number so you need the small doc again to prove a matching set.
Of course a 'true' set comprises the large doc,small doc and the cased medal.
I would say prob 2 large docs out there for every small one,roughly speaking.

Jon, it ain't necessarily so.......The party file card carries the designation (B) with the Blut Orden issue number, the recipient's name of course and often his photo. That was the case with Dobek as I found his in the National Archives. Otherwise, I would have purchased an unattributable BO 2nd Pattern medal and a document issued to Dobek.

[Jon Fish]

Joe, you are correct thats a possible route but not in all cases,you need to be lucky to find the documentation.But it can work a treat.

[JoeW]

Has anyone checked the file cards of some of the known 2nd issue BOs to see if the (B) is on their file cards?

[ErichS]

Hi Joe. Yes that is the case.The larger one in its folder was a presentation piece and kept at home. The smaller red oilcloth one shown was a document that needed to be kept on the recipients person when wearing the medal or the ribbon to prove the right to wear the order. I have a mint one and a couple of worn ones. Whats interesting is that it was possible to get replacements of the document,I have two in my collection that are second issue docs [interestingly both for first pattern medals] where the original holders doc had worn out.
That is why the brown first pattern docs are so hard to find,replacements so it would seem would be of the red style.
Of course the small red document[with name and issue number and date] can tie a second pattern medal to the doc and make a set.But with the large doc there is no medal issue number ,only the date and name.This makes it impossible to 100% verify a document corresponding to the medal.You can get a good idea by the issue date and name but thats it.The simple large 1st pattern doc is also without issue number so you need the small doc again to prove a matching set.
Of course a 'true' set comprises the large doc,small doc and the cased medal.
I would say prob 2 large docs out there for every small one,roughly speaking.

Jon, if you look in Niemann's book, he shows a second pattern from 1940 with a letter from the Office of the 9th of Nov. replacing his red document with a brown one due to his participation in the Putsch. So it looks like it was done in some cases.

[JoeW]

Here is what Dobek's party cards looked like. Notice the (B) on one card and additional award information on the second card. I heaved a sigh of relief when I found this in the archives. The auction house could never provide association of the Urkunde and medal for me.