A couple of Cultural items

[Michael Fay]

obviously Michael was busy again with serious studies in his huge collection of pagan mystic booklets

:

By serious studies in "pagan mystic booklets"as you disdainfully call them I have learned the facts for myself.
Funny how you are happy to cite this "SS=Familie" booklet and yet appear to have little respect for the actual booklets.
Why is that?
Wont it be better if everyone knows the actual facts and dont have to rely on SS gurus?

[Michael Fay]

Serious Studies

[QUOTE=Thorsten B.;4464050]Steve, of course - obviously Michael was busy again with serious studies in his huge collection of pagan mystic booklets

Serious Studies

[Michael Fay]

cultural books for serious studies

Steve, of course - obviously Michael was busy again with serious studies in his huge collection of pagan mystic booklets

:

Very serious studies.
One could call these "pagan mystical booklets" even cultural.

much better than taking another's word for it.

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

If you have such many books why don´t You come around and share all the info instead of trying to press infos you are not willing to share or unable to find out of other members here?

By the way, just to mention that aspect of literature:

I have access to ALL issues of "Das Schwarze Korps" here for example so you can put yours back in your safe

C´mon and start with the explanation about which carvings indicate whether it is a privately ordered Jul and Family chest, an official SS Jul and Family chest or just an odd and boring Family chest which has nothing to do with the Third Reich.

What the members want here is not a fight against each other with you always the provocing and jealous part trying to put me down - they want serious information.

So do your job and give us a lesson - we are eagerly waiting

Where is your one-of-a-kind article about chests of the period you mentioned?

C´mon and share all this with us - it cannot be just me sharing my infos.

Now it´s your turn and I wanna see that you play your role alright

[Michael Fay]

Michael,

If you have such many books why don´t You come around and share all the info instead of trying to press infos you are not willing to share or unable to find out of other members here?

By the way, just to mention that aspect of literature:

I have access to ALL issues of "Das Schwarze Korps" here for example so you can put yours back in your safe

C´mon and start with the explanation about which carvings indicate whether it is a privately ordered Jul and Family chest, an official SS Jul and Family chest or just an odd and boring Family chest which has nothing to do with the Third Reich.

What the members want here is not a fight against each other with you always the provocing and jealous part trying to put me down - they want serious information.

So do your job and give us a lesson - we are eagerly waiting

Where is your one-of-a-kind article about chests of the period you mentioned?

C´mon and share all this with us - it cannot be just me sharing my infos.

Now it´s your turn and I wanna see that you play your role alright

I already shared. Now no one will be duped into believing any old family chest
is always SS as hyped up by a unscrupulous dealer

[kaiserwilhelm2]

I must admit that quite a few items that appear on e-stand and sold by Thorsten are in my oppinion, to put it friendly, questionable items. Quite a few I believe are not connected to the actual and historical SS or even to the nazi period.

German culture, like all cultures of any note, are based on long(er) standing traditions. A lot of these 'SS' artifacts, for example the wooden plates, are found both in the 19th century and post 1945 because these are part of the longstanding German carpentry tradition. It is therefore extremely hard to rate any of these items as period made (1933-45). As these items were not produced nor awarded by the SS, these should not be looked on a SS cultural objects but - if these date from the Nazi period - as Nazi cultural items.

The SS was a subsidiary of the NSDAP. There really was no such thing as a specific SS culture or ideology that can be meaningfully distinguished from broader Nazism. Yes the SS can be described as the vanguard of national socialism, but we should focuss less on the vanguard aspect and more on the of part i.e. that it was part of a whole. Everything SS was part and parcel of Nazism which can be seen as a combination of racism (in the SS especially embodied by Allg. SS), militarism in combination with expensionism (in the SS embodied in the Waffen-SS) and charismatic dictatorship (in the SS especially embodied in the concept of the Leibstandarte/Verfuegungstruppe)). The SS was an integral part of the much wider Nazi movement of which it shared all traits but was only one, although an import, part. For example, a lot of people see the Julfest as a SS-specific celebration. It was however much broader. It was a Nazi fest which was celebrated widely by nazi's. The HJ and NSDAP performed Jul celebrations. It is mentioned and depicted in school books. There are Nazi postcards, not specific SS ones, that depict the julfest. There is a Meissen plate commemorating the Julfest.

There are however specific SS-items related to the Julfest: first and fore most the Julleuchter, Julcandle and the accompanying certificates. All awarded by Himmler to members of the SS. Then there are the Julplates by Allach. These are SS specific in the sense that these were produced by Allach which was a SS company. The plates however are less SS than the Julleuchter as these products were available for sale to the general public and were bought by Nazi's in general. The only items I would truely rate as specific SS-cultural items are the Julleuchter, the Totenkopfring and the Kinderfries.

The number of specific SS items, i.e. those items only available to SS-members and therefore awarded by Himmler and therefore usually accompanied by an award document, in general is small:

Julleuchter
Totenkopfring
SS civilian pin
SS Degen
SS uniform
SS membership card
Several Allach products not for general sale (the most significant cultural item being the Kinderfries)
A few products by Heinrich selbst

Not awarded but only available to members are the SS Leithefte and the SS Dagger.

Available SS products to a wider public:
Allach
Gahr
Schwarze Korps
Books by Nordland

All other items, although I may have overlooked one or two items, my friends are at best products of the period (which is hard to establish) and non-SS. These items were not made by SS companies and were not awarded by Himmler. Such items should not be sold as such or even looked upon as such.

[Michael Fay]

I must admit that quite a few items that appear on e-stand and sold by Thorsten are in my oppinion, to put it friendly, questionable items. Quite a few I believe are not connected to the actual and historical SS or even to the nazi period.

.

Thanks for stating your view. The silence from most of the community who have been viewing this thread has been dismaying.

Especially helpful is your revisiting my prevoius argument with Thorsten that "Jul" is not absolute proof of SS connection as he claims.
No doubt he hoped my questioning of him would simply fade away under his irrational insults, after which he could continue his "educating" of potential buyers.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Michael,

the fact that this is quite a specialist, niche area of collecting probably accounts for the fact that only a few people feel up to the task to provide some meaningful comments. This is not a discussion on wound badges after all - no disrespect for those of you that are really into wound badges. This is about culture rather than military and most people are interested in the latter and not in the former - which is a shame as also the military items become much more interesting when put in their propper cultural context.

I think that anyone interested in this subject (Nazi culture and/or SS), has read and thought about it and contrasts this with the lack of arguments combined with the amount of items being put up for sale and the quite amazing price slashing done by Thorsten should become suspicious. Common sense should be prevailing and if not that is too bad for those who buy into it. Only up to a point are we our brother's keeper. I believe that anyone who reads your posts and sees some of the stuff in your collection knows that you are serious. So I would say for your own peace of mind and your blood pressure forget about Thorsten. Your point has been made and by and large I believe correctly. Life is too short too waste on this. So go to sleep and enjoy the upcomming weekend.

Cheers, W

[Seiler]

Hi Michael,

the fact that this is quite a specialist, niche area of collecting probably accounts for the fact that only a few people feel up to the task to provide some meaningful comments. This is not a discussion on wound badges after all - no disrespect for those of you that are really into wound badges. This is about culture rather than military and most people are interested in the latter and not in the former - which is a shame as also the military items become much more interesting when put in their propper cultural context.

I think that anyone interested in this subject (Nazi culture and/or SS), has read and thought about it and contrasts this with the lack of arguments combined with the amount of items being put up for sale and the quite amazing price slashing done by Thorsten should become suspicious. Common sense should be prevailing and if not that is too bad for those who buy into it. Only up to a point are we our brother's keeper. I believe that anyone who reads your posts and sees some of the stuff in your collection knows that you are serious. So I would say for your own peace of mind and your blood pressure forget about Thorsten. Your point has been made and by and large I believe correctly. Life is too short too waste on this. So go to sleep and enjoy the upcomming weekend.

Cheers, W

Amen to that.
Take care Michael.
Seiler

[Etienne B.]

Now whe are getting somewhere.I fear that my knowledge of the englsh language is not sufficient to get in the right touch about the details.
The Julfeier was offcourse not a SS invention.But the SS did promote the paganlike new religion they had in mind.

I have some paperwork that says ''that in the home of every SS man there should be a corner with a chest and other mementos.And in magazines like example ''Die Feier'' they offer a practical guide for example birthdays,weddings and marriages.So I firmly believe that they were just starting thinks up and that only the outcome of the war changed things.

And offcourse oak family chest were made from the 17 century upon now but when swastikas and runes or runic carvings appear is is clearly made in the third reich.And I tend to believe that the whole germanic ''style'' mainly were used by SS members.

I for example owe a nice family chest.It is decorated with a swastika,runic symbols and some folkish symbols.It even is dated 1935.Is it SS or made for a SS family.I don't know and can't prove it either.But is was produced by or for someone who has at least serious thought about the design and wanted to put the symbols on it.

The same counts for the wooden plates.There are common ones with texts carved like they did for centuries but when runic symbols and typical third reich slogans appear they are with out doubt original.But were they made specially for the SS I can't prove it again.

But on the other hand the only material that describes the JUL ecke is SS related paperwork.I have never encountered HJ or NSDAP magazines that go deeper in this subject.

just my two cents................



Etienne

[Thorsten B.]

Yes,

Indeed we are getting somewhere!

Now finally the promoters of this ridiculous crusade come out of their holes

I LOVE IT!

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

You wrote this:

"Now no one will be duped into believing any old family chest
is always SS as hyped up by a unscrupulous dealer"


The ice you are walking on right now is thin - VERY THIN!


Now you SERIOUSLY need to back up that with some facts and so I ask you:

Which chest are you refering to?

When and WHOM did I try to "dupe into believing any old family chest is always SS"?

[Thorsten B.]

You talked the talk - now walk the walk!

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Etienne,

You may not have those books but I do. I have and have had quite a few NSDAP/Nazi publications that were not of the SS and which deal extensively and specifically with how to organize and conduct celebrations: Day of the taking over of power, Fuehrergeburtstag, 1st of May, 9. November and of course the Julfest. Books like Gestaltung der Feier im Jahreslauf and so on.

Besides you must have seen the well know historic footage of HJ-members standing around the big fires for the Julfest or jumping over them. I know from personal annecdotes of a BDM-member that they also celibrated the Julfest. Usually this was done on a hill or in an open space in the woods somewhere in the area where they lived and was quite often attended by all sorts of party affiliations.

As for the runic craze that may have been at its height during the TR but was already apparent in the late 19th Century when the Germans like many other nations got interested in archeology. Just look at some of the art work by Fidus and Hermann Hendrich. Also the Freikorps and SA quite liberaly used runes. Furthermore during TR-period runes where not just the property of the SS, the HJ, Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, U-Boot forces all used them. Runes where considered to be the authentic German script and supposedly proved that the German or Germanic culture was at least of similar height and glory as that of other ancient civilizations as the Greeks and Romans which as we all know it unfortunately was not.

And yes I know that there was something promoted as a Julcorner by the SS but that does not mean every trunc with a runic symbol was owned by a member of the SS and even if so that does not mean that the trunc just by having been owned by a SS-member becomes a SS trunc. A German Cross awarded to a member of the W-SS does not make the German Cross a SS-decoration. Those truncs, wooden plates, iron work, all those handicrafts were individual items that were sold by crafsmen to individuals whether SS or not. Like I stated previously the only true SS items are those that were exclusively tied to being a member of the SS. Anybody could have gone at any time to a carpeter and gotten a runic trunc made. The capenter would (and will ;-)) not ask you for your SS Ausweiss to start making you one.

In any case my main point is that besides those items mentioned in my previous posting (Julleuchter, Totenkopfring - all those well know SS-awarded items) there are no other exclusively SS-items just Nazi period stuff. Some of this obsession with SS stuff comes from the fact that these SS guys have been promoted as something quite special and extra ordinary. This is a product of post war Germany. It is quite nice too blame a relatively small group of SS men (260.000 in the Allg. SS and a somewhat bigger group in the W-SS (thank God some Germans will say these were mostly foreigners - which they were) as the real Nazi's while the rest of the population were not. As various academic publications show in the late war years there was very little in ideology/outlook that seperated those fighting in the W-SS from those in the Wehrmacht. Both relied heavily on the HJ to supply them with new recruits. In the HJ every boy got his share of Nazi-ideology which was embraced for the most part. Nazi Germany was thoroughly nazified in the early forties as most everybody was in uniform and familiar with runes, flags, war, racism, not just the SS. So to come back on topic to turn all Nazi handicraft into SS is historically incorrect.

Cheers, W

[Thorsten B.]

To kaiserwilhelm2:

First: Your input in comment 715 is so full of serious mistakes that it is hard to tell where to start correcting it.

But I start right here in your last comment 723:

"The capenter would not ask you for your SS Ausweiss to start making you one."

Can you back up your personal opinion with any doubtless evidence?

I strongly believe that the Jul chest manufactured by DHW could indeed only be purchased by showing your SS Ausweis!

Why?

Because this was DEFINITELY the case regarding Gahr products AND other SS jewelry!

By the way:

The Jul chest of the DHW bears NO runes or any other official political signs - and (maybe just because of that fact) it was an SS product only for SS members and introduced into the SS with publishing it in the SS Family book of SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz Weitzel in Düsseldorf.