A couple of Cultural items

[Capt. R]

Interestingly, they do seem to claim capability beyond just effectively dating the wood age, as above, detect changes in the wood due to exposure to light, environment and so on versus the protected wood below the surface, quote from the sites FAQ;

'Q. The age requirement does not make sense, because it may already old wood have been used?

A. The use of old wood can quickly, safely and easily detected by comparing the spectroscopic analysis between the outside of the object and its inner part.
The object surface is chemically altered much more by sunlight, humidity and air pollution. When counterfeits are the two analysis, depending on the age of their production, more or less identical.'

I would need to be convinced of the accuracy of the external to internal assessment of 'aging', you know, things like a piece being on display for 50 years as opposed to being in Oma's trunk in the dark and so forth. Also accuracy of measuring ageing in a relatively young piece like a TR item. Still, interesting to see a method that goes beyond just dating the wood.

Time for bed, but worth a read another time.

sounds like junk science to me, but I have not the background to say definitively. BTW, Etienne and Thorsten, those are some immpressive plates for sure.

[Steve T]

hi Steve - hope you have been well.

what is the book on top of the pile to the right in your photo?

Hi Don,

Its 'Ton und Töpfer' - German, TR period book, not sure of the date as its not marked but published by the State Museum for Folk Art'.

[Thorsten B.]

Don,

Thanks for your compliment!

Regarding the wood method: this is definitely no junk whatsoever.

It is THE perfect independent possibility to separate the junk from the original jewels in the field of wooden cultural items - that´s what it is.

And it will give evidence to my personal beliefs that at least some of these lately so suddenly surfaced wooden SS MK boxes are - junk!

If you own such a piece just for your own and the whole collector´s scene interest send it to them here in Germany, pay the 1bout 100 Euros and wait and see.

If it turns out to be authentic - good for you!

If it turns out to be faked copy at a high price then you are invited to name the individual who sold it to you - if it´s a WAF member - even better!

That will help keep the house clean!

[Thorsten B.]

Contact to Mr. Dr.

Guys,

Believe it or not:

Just five minutes ago I had a pleasant discussion on the phone with one of the responsible scientists running the institution separating fakes from originals.

I informed him about the WAF forum and my thoughts regarding some wooden SS cultural items and explained everything to him.

He said that I should send him an E-mail with a short explanation again and he will translate and send it to his brother in Milano.

To make it short: by sending in to him an extracted piece of the wooden item he can analyze it and make an expertise for not more than 150 Euros.

In that expertise he will explain in detail the used methods and ways of verification.

Now listen:

With this method he can verify ONLY the age of the used wood with an up or down of 10 years.

SECOND AND BETTER WAY:

By sending him the whole item in question itself he can analyze also the time when something has been carved into the surface of this specific wooden item!!!

----------------------------------

So if a faker uses wood which had been cut before 1945 (without any problem available in the german wood market) and a carver makes a new SS MK box out of this old wood he cannot get away with this!

Because the assessment and the used scientific methods can definitely detect WHEN THE CARVING HAS BEEN DONE!!!

I decided to send him one special SS wooden piece I own and order a full assessment for that - and will publish the results here so that it´s plain to see for everybody.

[Thorsten B.]

Here is the contact:

Tel: +49/8382/9896472;
Mobil: +49/173/5853707
fax: +49/8382/9896473;

Info: mm@museoartescienza.com

Dr. Martin Matthaes

-------------------------------------------------

So if anybody is interested to find out if his wooden SS MK box is indeed real or a nice fake just do yourself the favour and contact that polite and professional man.

Send him your wooden item and deal with the "coming out"

By the way: their methods are also good for any oil painting, piece of furniture and ceramic objects.

I am eagerly looking forward to receive my first assessment from them

[Thorsten B.]

Last but not least:

Their used spectroscopical method of age determination has already been considered to be conclusive as reasons given for the judgement.

[fenrir]

...AND HERE'S THEIR PRICES-LIST...http://www.museoartescienza.com/tariffario.ita.htm

[der-hase-fee]

Guys,

Believe it or not:

Just five minutes ago I had a pleasant discussion on the phone with one of the responsible scientists running the institution separating fakes from originals.

I informed him about the WAF forum and my thoughts regarding some wooden SS cultural items and explained everything to him.

He said that I should send him an E-mail with a short explanation again and he will translate and send it to his brother in Milano.

To make it short: by sending in to him an extracted piece of the wooden item he can analyze it and make an expertise for not more than 150 Euros.

In that expertise he will explain in detail the used methods and ways of verification.

Now listen:

With this method he can verify ONLY the age of the used wood with an up or down of 10 years.

SECOND AND BETTER WAY:

By sending him the whole item in question itself he can analyze also the time when something has been carved into the surface of this specific wooden item!!!

----------------------------------

So if a faker uses wood which had been cut before 1945 (without any problem available in the german wood market) and a carver makes a new SS MK box out of this old wood he cannot get away with this!

Because the assessment and the used scientific methods can definitely detect WHEN THE CARVING HAS BEEN DONE!!!

I decided to send him one special SS wooden piece I own and order a full assessment for that - and will publish the results here so that it´s plain to see for everybody.

sounds like junk science to me

It's been said before.

They should set up an exhibit at Ripley's and make real money.

[Thorsten B.]

Interesting: Is it pure coincidence that You chime in here at this point?


Apart from your Jada-Jada: Do you have something interesting to add or something to hide??

[Thorsten B.]

Time to sort this out!

Anybody who purchased one of these wooden SS MK boxes is invited to share infos about it´s seller privately or better here - do yourself the favour, help to keep this forum clean and send in your example for scientific assessment.

If everything turns out to be fine and original - good for all of us.

If that might not be the case - and I have no doubt about it - name the seller of the piece and protect yourselves and our collector community here.

Since I definitely did not purchase one of these boxes it is up to the owners to chime in and do good for themselves.

[Thorsten B.]

Enough said - let´s see another beauty!

Hmmm...jummy

What can I say?

Born too late

[Thorsten B.]

Second try...

Hmm... - maybe one by one so that the pic is finally in propper position?!

Whatever - hot BDM chick!

[Capt. R]

Awesome print.

I don't think it is a wise move to invite people to start naming sellers of items as some sort of half-a_ _ ed vetting process. There's a lot of stuff that we don't know a lot about - allach and DHW, tellers etc. but we still know that they are period TR. Let's not single out only one item. However, if anyone has definitive proof of their useage - let's dig that up and shine the light of day on it!!!

[fenrir]

..so good that litho Thorsten..
what is the name of the author and the tirage?

[Thorsten B.]

To Don:

I value your opinion but we have to consider as well:

The institute I mentioned is held in highest regards worldwide so I don´t see from that side any indicator that could justify calling my agenda a half-a**ed vetting process.

Indeed to give full evidence to my apprehension and personal belief that about 50% of the SS MK boxes are fakes it needs not me but the owners.

Again and to make this clear to everybody:

I have NO doubt that these wooden SS MK boxes indeed were in use within the TR period.

BUT: these pieces are relatively easy to fake with CNC-added processes and machines for example or still just by hand carving.

The high realized market prices certainly guarantee a high faker´s and dealers profit so they are attractive not only for collectors who invest their money in purchasing them...

You said: "However, if anyone has definitive proof of their useage - let's dig that up and shine the light of day on it!!!"

Since I see no chance that we can give doubtless evidence that and how they were used in the TR period yet - again: I personally have no doubt about their existence and usage in the TR period - we just need the owners chiming in and getting their pieces checked - and that´s just it!