A couple of Cultural items

[Steve T]

Steve, this one gives me pause,
I can find modern carved wood products that look a lot like this at medieval fairs and U.S.Norwegian (and even U.S. Scottish)pride festivals .
The modern USA version of the skins love this symbol (they just call it the Black Sun) and they buy them up fast-or so the seller of such items told me, who is glad of the business. It even looks like a modern plate that I believe was sold on a "Euro-pagan" website from Ohio(of all places) that went out of business a few years back. They also sold standing "Black Suns" in metal (from Salt lake City, Utah!) and wooden Irminsuls, etc.
What does this plate have that assures you it is from 33-45?

Michael,

I agree, we should pause for some concern with a 'black sun' motif (black sun is a post war name isn't it? not sure what to call it.) It surely must be something attractive to producers of modern neo-pagan wood items. It's doubtful whether its period, I can't assure anyone that it's made 33-45, and I'd be surprised if it is period.

On the negative side, it does look in great condition, so one thinks, too good to be true on that point. Some fading of the shellac but overall very good shape but being in good shape can be possible, it's a wall plate, a decorative piece and not functional, so its possible to be in good shape, also it's oak, very durable compared to most TR plates, most aren't oak.

There are no big red flags to tell me right away it's relatively modern, its actually a nice quality. Clearly it's turned on a lathe like any other plate. It wasn't a quick plate to make though, the carving is done by hand, not by machine, you can see variation in the wall angle of the sigrunes and the field areas where the oak has been removed between the runes are not precise, its a hand tooled surface, its not flat.

After carving it looks to be finished in a thin shellac, from my experience the typical treatment of the period, which has now possibly aged, thinned, and now shows areas of bare oak (hard to see now as I've dusted and waxed it). Where it has thinned on the top of the plate you can detect darkening, this is a wall plate and with wall plates you see a darkening with time on the top of the plate where dust has collected. This happens to a lesser degree on the inside bottom of the plate too, but obviously its shaded somewhat from the top. Another age indicator I look for is warping, just by placing on something you know is flat like granite slab. This one hasn't recently come off a lathe, its warped too. No exact science of course but sometimes these types of inspections are helpful to me for coming to a conclusion.

So, my opinion is it's not recent, like made last year, it's shows some age but an assurance of being period, I couldn't say. Common sense should suggest it's younger than the TR but it was cheap enough to want to have it to look at least. You never know with some of these things, sometimes they are worth inspecting and learning something from.

It just came to me from Berlin with what was the main purchase, an SS document and apparently from an estate of an SS chap, but a story doesn't matter, the other piece is without doubt real, but the plate, who knows for sure, even if it were from an SS man he could have had it made post war, even imported it from Ohio.

[Jack83]

A nice, common sense reply Steve. Sounds like you got it right.

[Michael Fay]

Michael,

I agree, we should pause for some concern with a 'black sun' motif (black sun is a post war name isn't it? not sure what to call it.) It surely must be something attractive to producers of modern neo-pagan wood items. It's doubtful whether its period, I can't assure anyone that it's made 33-45, and I'd be surprised if it is period.

Since you posted it without comment on possible problems, some would conclude you felt confident in its' veracity...more problematic, others would simply assume it. Hence I had to say somthing as I followed this symbol's appearance for years.

On the negative side, it does look in great condition, so one thinks, too good to be true on that point. Some fading of the shellac but overall very good shape but being in good shape can be possible, it's a wall plate, a decorative piece and not functional, so its possible to be in good shape, also it's oak, very durable compared to most TR plates, most aren't oak.

There are no big red flags to tell me right away it's relatively modern, its actually a nice quality. Clearly it's turned on a lathe like any other plate. It wasn't a quick plate to make though, the carving is done by hand, not by machine, you can see variation in the wall angle of the sigrunes and the field areas where the oak has been removed between the runes are not precise, its a hand tooled surface, its not flat.

After carving it looks to be finished in a thin shellac, from my experience the typical treatment of the period, which has now possibly aged, thinned, and now shows areas of bare oak (hard to see now as I've dusted and waxed it). Where it has thinned on the top of the plate you can detect darkening, this is a wall plate and with wall plates you see a darkening with time on the top of the plate where dust has collected. This happens to a lesser degree on the inside bottom of the plate too, but obviously its shaded somewhat from the top. Another age indicator I look for is warping, just by placing on something you know is flat like granite slab. This one hasn't recently come off a lathe, its warped too. No exact science of course but sometimes these types of inspections are helpful to me for coming to a conclusion.

So, my opinion is it's not recent, like made last year, it's shows some age but an assurance of being period, I couldn't say. Common sense should suggest it's younger than the TR but it was cheap enough to want to have it to look at least. You never know with some of these things, sometimes they are worth inspecting and learning something from.

Yes, lots to learn from having items in hand.
But with iffy items only for a cheap price. some one will surely start offering the 5 year old versions as authentic.It is merely a matter of time...literally, as a few years can put "wear" on them, both honest and ersatz.I do warn any collectors to be very careful with this symbol on ANY item.

It just came to me from Berlin with what was the main purchase, an SS document and apparently from an estate of an SS chap, but a story doesn't matter, the other piece is without doubt real, but the plate, who knows for sure, even if it were from an SS man he could have had it made post war, even imported it from Ohio.

It is an interesting story and we will no doubt here and see more from this symbol in the future : for good or ill.

P.S. just figuring out how to do multiple qoutes-so am sorry for the in elegant results

[Michael Fay]

Black Sun Schwarzes Sonne oder Allemanni Ur Zeichen

surface, its not flat.

So, my opinion is it's not recent, like made last year, it's shows some age but an assurance of being period, I couldn't say. Common sense should suggest it's younger than the TR but it was cheap enough to want to have it to look at least. You never know with some of these things, sometimes they are worth inspecting and learning something from.

.

Steve,
in regards to your PM, I will answer it here as it will perhaps help get the ideas flowing and be of interest to some.

The Ohio based Euro -centric pagan company I mentioned was
"Europa Germanic traditions Ltd."
they were on the web for a few years when I knew of them and they closed shop very abruptly about 5 or 6 years ago, if I remember correctly...
They sometimes had authentic nice TR items and sold them as such. But this was always one-off items. They were first and foremost a small publishing house of translated Deutsch texts (well that is what got my attention), and then had modern made items like Wooden irminsuls, irminsul necklaces, Black Sun emblems, from metal and wood and on shirts, etc.
There was also about 5 years ago some european sites selling wooden Black Sun designs ---I can remember one italian site really bothered me because they were quite handsomly made and I knew the future would see these as claimed as authentic TR.
Also annoying was that this symbol carved in wood was being offered on some "pagan" sites and called and described as somthing having nothing to do with it's true history(both from Wewelsburg or ancient Alemmanni tribe symbol) ...instead they gave some "fluffy" new age type story to it.
I just looked through all my saved favorites from my dead computers. Sadly none of my saved "Nazi Pagan" sites (thats what they were in reality) can be found in my old files.
Also, many of these pagan and nazi pagan sites vanish quickly.

Final thought: You asked about the term "Black Sun" as being post war... while I am sure you know full well its history, others dont. In a nut-shell, no proof the SS in official docs/or official SS literature ever called this symbol anything at all.
None I have seen yet.
The symbol was discussed in some TR era history books but was not related to any SS affiliation or use, and was certainly not called the Black Sun /Schwarzes Sonne in these books. Instead such books focused on the ancient germanic use of the symbol.
This symbol was known in USA by 1981. In the Occult world of the USA, that is. Specifically followers of the Church of Satan (or ex-followers ,now worshipping Set) doing a rite at the spot where the symbol resides on the floor and ceiling in Wewelsburg Schloss.The symbol had a slow migration into the mainstream racist American milieu from there. By 1991, it was a symbol used by skinheads. I am sure they had no idea of its origins.
So my point is: there can ,in theory, be plates(or anything else) with this symbol made as early as 1981 in America, itself!
As Germans would have always known about this symbol (those who cared to learn) such a plate could have been made anytime-for a myriad of reasons.
Regards,
Michael

[Minnesinger]

That "Obergruppenführersaal central motif-teller" has a difference compared to the one in the floor at Wewelsburg. I'm surprised you didn't spot it straight away.

[Steve T]

That "Obergruppenführersaal central motif-teller" has a difference compared to the one in the floor at Wewelsburg. I'm surprised you didn't spot it straight away.

Yeah, one's wood Sorry only kidding For sure there is a difference, the plate design in the centre.

[Thorsten B.]

Maybe this one suits the tastes:

[Steve T]

Michael,

Thanks for the feedback on the sites and 'black sun' etc.

Yes I posted without presenting thoughts on it, I had just received it and photographed it. I hadn't anything precise to say about it at that moment and was searching around for the Euro-Pagan sites to try and find such an item to perhaps nail it precisely.

For the record, after having it and inspecting it I find it extremely unlikely to be a period piece. It's a nice material, made well but it just doesn't sit right with what I think are period pieces. Taking it all in, though its nicely made and has some age, in terms of style it doesn't it doesn't look right, and although sometimes things can still look good with age, this piece does not have the look of something that should be 70 years plus.

I agree that there are people around that could make fairly convincing replica's of period items if they should care to do so.

Last week I had very good meeting with a real master craftsman up in Derbyshire, just by chance. I visited his workshop and had a very enjoyable hour or so there and I was so impressed I took a few snaps too. He makes superb quality oak furniture, far superior to any of the DHW pieces I have. I think of DHW as like art and crafts, nicely crafted but not real artisan level work. He runs a small family business that was started in 1946. Everything is made by hand with the tools his father used back in '46, no electric saws, sanding machines or anything like that. It was a real pleasure to see such craftsmanship, quality that comes at a price though, pieces I could not afford, for example a sideboard is of the order of GBP 6000.00.

It was a good day in Derbyshire, I also visited an old weaving mill, Derbyshire once having world leading mills and patented weaving technology in the past. One town I called in at was Cromford, our German members may know the name as there is a weaving town in Germany called Cromford as well. They set up a weaving town on Sir Richard Arkwright's model and even gave it the English name.

[Steve T]

Maybe this one suits the tastes:

Thorsten, now you just want to make it more complex for collectors A style that suits the taste but then we have a message on it that is typically seen to be a Christian script? Do tell more.

[Thorsten B.]

Well, everyday is a good day on WAF - since every day we learn something new.

This one is constructed as a wall plate as visable on it´s back - and it is from the period, that´s clear.

It´s an example how christian and pagan intentions and content got mixed - just have in mind that Himmler talked within the Julkerze citations about a "Herrgott" - whatever he had in mind that term is in general a christian term as well.

As you know still many members of the SS were still officially Catholics or Protestants - interesting to note on this one is that the sunwheel is the dominant element.

[Thorsten B.]

It´s outward appearance is quite similar to this one:

[Steve T]

Well, everyday is a good day on WAF - since every day we learn something new.

This one is constructed as a wall plate as visable on it´s back - and it is from the period, that´s clear.

It´s an example how christian and pagan intentions and content got mixed - just have in mind that Himmler talked within the Julkerze citations about a "Herrgott" - whatever he had in mind that term is in general a christian term as well.

As you know still many members of the SS were still officially Catholics or Protestants - interesting to note on this one is that the sunwheel is the dominant element.

A lot of things to weigh up when judging a plate for sure.


Continuing the platefest, here's another, a peasant style bowl/plate and in complete contrast to the twelve spoked sigrune plate above this one shows its age and I think attractive because of its patina and obvious signs of use. Looking at the stains I'd hazard a guess it was used as a fruit bowl.

[Thorsten B.]

Äh...the dedication clearly defines this one as a bread plate - and they cut the bread in it as we can see.

Anyway, it´s a nice and period piece.

[Steve T]

Äh...the dedication clearly defines this one as a bread plate - and they cut the bread in it as we can see.

Anyway, it´s a nice and period piece.

OK, it was fruit bread then

The 'cut' is a split from warping of the wood, it goes right through to the base.

[Thorsten B.]

Just got this one in - the pic shows the piece at former owner´s place, he inherited it from his aunt.

Both have always been citizens of Berlin - he said that he remembers this one being there already since he was a little boy and visited his aunt.

Both were heavy smokers and so this one smells like a tobacco shop.

I know: don´t buy the story but the item - well, I did and I am happy; especially because it´s the big red version which is in perfect harmony with any other DHW- and cultural piece.