Help with nskk tunic setup.

[wewelsburg]

Hey fellas Im presently buying an NSKK service tunic from the Estand and have some questions its a 2 shoulderboard 5 button service tunic.The tunic has the eagle on teh right sleeve it doesnt come with an armband but im purchasing one for it from the seller,my first question is what year did they stop wearing the armband?was it when the eagle went to the left sleeve?
.Also would a dagger be inappropriate for a wartime tunic?a sam browne crossstrap?Im not exactly sure what year the tunic and was wondering about these transitions based on the model of tunic..Also I will later be in the market for an overseas cap to go with it.The motorsturm is M13/84 so an EM cap with just the eagle right?no color triangles were used wartime correct?Dont want to post pic here for obvious reasons but its on estand.Just wondering what i can ultimately do with it.Answers appreciated.

[wewelsburg]

can anyone help?

[Guymauve]

Hi
13/M84 Reichenhall, Motorgruppe Hochland (MG A. Hühnlein, 1942)
Should have only one shoulderboard with light blue piping.
Two shoulderboards was for military purpose units like Trsp. Brig. Todt, Speer, Luftwaffe, or special units like wartime "Verkehrkompanien"...
Cheers

[wewelsburg]

so this setup is incorrect?the tunic has two black shoulderboards with number 2 buttons.
edit THERE IS A TUNIC ON THE COLLECTORS GUILD SIMILAR TO THIS WITH 2 BLACK SHOULDERBOARDS.IT SAYS THAT JUST MEANS UNDER WEHRMACHT CONTROL.AS FAR AS BEING BLACK SINCE THIS IS LATER ON I BELIEVE ITS GENERAL SECTION.ANYONE HAVE ANOTHER OPINION??

[wewelsburg]

Noone has this knowledge?

[Bob Coleman]

Standard NSKK tunics should have only a right shoulder strap. The position of the eagle on the right sleeve is correct for a uniform worn within the Reich. The kampfbinde was worn on the left sleeve for units within the Reich until the end of the war. Black underlay indicates a unit from either Motorgruppe Niederrhein or Motorgruppe Berlin-Brandenburg. Black piping for the Todt and Speer Organizations on a shoulder board is correct but the shape is similar to a military style board, not the thinner political form worn by the standard NSKK. The unit numbers on the collar tab will tell you if the insignia matches a unit from either of the afore mentioned Motorgruppe.
I looked at what I believe to be the uniform you are contemplating. The M84 designation is for Motorgruppe Huhnlein, which should have a light blue underlay. The insignia on this tunic does not make any sense. The collar tabs do not match the shoulder straps, of which there is one too many. This uniform was certainly not worn in period with this mix of insignia.

[NickG]

so this setup is incorrect?the tunic has two black shoulderboards with number 2 buttons.
edit THERE IS A TUNIC ON THE COLLECTORS GUILD SIMILAR TO THIS WITH 2 BLACK SHOULDERBOARDS.IT SAYS THAT JUST MEANS UNDER WEHRMACHT CONTROL.AS FAR AS BEING BLACK SINCE THIS IS LATER ON I BELIEVE ITS GENERAL SECTION.ANYONE HAVE ANOTHER OPINION??

The NSKK adopting military style 2 shoulder straps was indeed a war time development when these units were mobilized for the war effort...and came "Im Dienst der Wehrmacht". So the 2 straps military style set up on such a tunic I do not find being a problem at all, it dates the uniform and is a natural development from peace time NSKK to war time "kriegs-einstatz" NSKK. The NSKK also moved the sleeve eagle from the right sleeve to the left sleeve, as the armband was not worn in war time operations (specifically outside of the Reich).

The waffenfarbe for Unit 13/M84 (Motorsturm 13, of Motorstandarte 84) might indeed be blue, if its the code for a Hochland unit... That would be their gebiets farbe.
The number "2" button could be a unit attachment (kinship) button for the armed forces (WH) parent unit the NSKKer was serving.

Black farbe war time was a color adopted by NSKK SPeer... (later TKS had brown on army stylee boards)
So it might be that during the war the black farbe became the generic farbe for the NSKK in general while in Army service...(matching black caps, black trousers)
I'm not sure though as its not explained like this in Angolia-Littlejohn's NSKK book... but these drivers were operating outside of their (prewar) gebiet, got transfered, operated in foreign countries so a generic farbe during war time (while serving the armed forces) and worn outside of the Reich (outside of their gebiet) would make sense to me...

That could also explain the later NSKK generic cap eagle (2nd pattern eagle) on a black backing (doing away with the back ground color farbe eagle patch on the caps, another example of the gebiets farbe disappearing...At least that's my take on it, (theory) considering its war time with supply issues, transfers etc... an "einheits farbe" would make sense in kriegs time.....Who knows?
(possible explanation or otherwise its indeed a mis=matched piece)
An exception would the ausland fahrer, the foreign drivers Dutch,Franch,Walloon and Flemish. They retained their farbes, as these were legion nationality farbes...(colors)

Black backed boards in combination with a unit cypher unit that was supposed to have lt blue backing for me is not an automatic red flag. If it was another color other than black it would indeed certainly be a mis-match...
On this war time set up I see no red flags, in case my theory (plausible explanation) proves to be correct (per Peter Whamond's example explanation) and in case its indeed an untouched (unmessed with) tunic...who knows?
BUT I would have been more comfortable with this piece if it had a blank (no cypher) right collar tab.

Here's a war time image with 2 sets of shoulderboards ! Note military style belts... The single shoulderboard was a pre-war set up which worked well the the "sam brown" style cross strap (right shoulder), not usually worn in war time, as this NSKK image illustrates.

[Bob Coleman]

This tunic does not follow any regulations for either either Todt or Speer unit insignia. The standard collar tabs would certainly have been replaced with the blank black and later black tabs with "SP". The form of shoulder straps is the standard political form, not the Todt/Speer form. To me, this is a put together piece done by an individual not familiar with the regulations for the NSKK.

[wewelsburg]

Well ive got a refund on it,what puzzles me is the tunic came from Bill Shea Im told by the seller,he has misplaced the documents on it when they turn up who knows?

[wewelsburg]

BOB reguarding the NSKK tunic,the collectors guild has a tunic right now with 2 skinny straps EXACTLY like this tunic,what do you think?is that tunic a put together also?the buttons arent numbered but the collar tab is blank.It just seems to me TOO much of a coincidence that both tunics have 2 political straps and both ARE BLACK!Maybe there is something we have missed here,maybe 2 political straps with black underlay were worn,and were a standard color.The guild says a Nederhein or Berlin tunic also but im thinking with both tunics having these something might be unknown here?maybe they dont mean this district when worn as 2 black straps but under wehrmacht control as Nick states.also the guild says 2 boards meant wehrmacht control also.the thing they dont say is black underlay means this.This is strange that both tunics have black straps,Im thinking it does mean in wehrmacht service,so then what would stop this tunic from meaning Hochland like the tabs are in service of the wehrmacht??does the number 2 on the boards work with these tabs ??HELP,anyway the seller tends to keep the tunic now reguardless but Id like to know if maybe it was ok in the first place!Bob I realize you are a VERY knowledgeable man but is what am saying plausible to you seeing the second tunic??

[NickG]

Standard NSKK tunics should have only a right shoulder strap.... the shoulder straps..... one too many. Bob.

Again, it is absolutely fine to have NSKK uniforms tailored with 2 shoulder-boards. That is not something that's limited to NSKK-OT, NSKK-SP,NSKK Reg.LW or TKS.
Here is an image showing NSKK boss Hünlein (in trench coat) with senior NSKK officers during the war (note Hungarian officer) and ALL are wearing double shoulderboards...a war time development of NSKK uniforms.
The unit cypher on the tab combined with the black backed shoulderstraps I can't explain with certainty, but if black farbe denotes in service of the Armed Forces (as the Guild explains) its a plausible (war time) combination.

[NickG]

This NSKK unit (not a later SPeer, not NSKK-OT, or TKS unit, its still early in the war 1940 Blitzkrieg) was involved with the battle of France, helping the wehrmacht and shows NSKK mechanics repairing captured British motorcycles. (shown here, either BSA or Norton).
The unit was able to fix many abondoned British vehicles in a very short time that for their efforts they were awarded the unit title
"NSKK Bataillon Dünkirchen" (aka. Technisches Bataillon Dünkirchen) also a cuff-title "Dunkirchen" (Dunkirch) was considered, not sure
if it got awarded. Note the shoulderstrap on the LEFT shoulder...obviously 2 straps are being worn here,
again photographic proof of this war time uniform development, in line with other (armed forces) uniform regulations,
and the eagle now worn on the left sleeve as opposed to the peace time position on the right sleeve (because of the Political arm band)...
Is the strap backing material black? Sure looks like it... Also note captured British dust goggles in wear!

[NickG]

This would have been a better "text book" war time configuration. Sleeve eagle moved to the left sleeve, and generic blank tab...
(I altered the image obviously) but sometimes soldiers did not bother moving the eagle over to the other side I guess...
Its possible, but the added the 2nd strap, as previous post period photo shows, is a common alteration for NSKK war time service uniforms with duty attachment to Armed Forces.

I have fotos of Dutch NSKK troops with the German NSKK sleeve eagles mounted...The Dutch (like any foreign volunteer) were NOT supposed to wear the German NSKK eagle...instead a Dutch wolfhook patch...but the uniform came with an eagle and they did not bother to remove it...
Same goes I guess for moving the eagle from the right sleeve to the left sleeve, perhaps it was not always done...did not bother... I have an open mind about this kind of stuff...seen too many non text book examples in period images, that I'm not surprized anymore, when I see stuff like this...That's probably why the Guild's NSKK uniform also retains the eagle on the right sleeve (+ arm band on the left shown still) and has double shoulderstraps...Not necessarily a sloppy restoration!

[NickG]

For those who think they've seen it all...try to explain this uniform!
NSKK but in Polizei green with brown Polizei cuffs? (with 2 shoulderstraps)...
Try selling that in modern times! (you have to have an open mind!)
Image taken in Russia!

Note NSKK raute just above the polizei brown cuffs!!! NSKK side cap, NSKK rank tab with pip on collar,
matching that hat rank pip NSKK style! This is definately no polizei guy!
No NSKK sleeve eagle visible so perhaps it got mounted on the right sleeve? (unlike the following post!)

[NickG]

YES, the NSKK even adopted the use of Polizei uniforms on occasion during the war. The NSKK had an NSKK-Polizei unit in Vienna (note edelweiss!) which wore polizei uniforms modified with NSKK insignia.
So strange mixes were indeed possible!
Again eagle on the left sleeve and 2 sets of shoulderstraps!