party badge and arm band

[martin hall]

Hi guys would like your help on these two iterms as its not my area thanks for any help martin .

[martin hall]

back

rear of badge thanks for looking .

[martin hall]

Armband

Some little friends have had there way . Thanks for any help martin .

[luftwaffe blue]

I say OK to the armband, others will know about the party badge, Sean

[BryanD]

The party badge is a good one.

[David Guist]

The armband is good.I dont know about the badge? Best regards.

[martin hall]

thanks for your help and input martin .

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi,

Armband is good and the party pin looks like a good transitional piece.

Regards, Theo
(Wim Vangossum)

[wewelsburg]

I dont like the pin,RZM and Ges GEsch should never belong together on a pin,also where is the RZM #?? and the o is oval instead of round,sorry some with both marks are said to be ok,but Iw ouldnt want one.

[Jo Rivett]

The party badge is an old reproduction. with 100% certainty.
RZM and Ges.Gecsh are found many many many times over on party badges too from various makers but in conjunction with their RZM numbers though (just take the HJ Honor badges for example that show RZM, ges.gesch and the makers code), so i don't know what that last comment was all about , just not like this though, with the staggered Z in the logo and only RZM and ges.gesch. Send it back to Nick Morigi where it first came from. The pin plate might fool a few because they used similar on early period pieces. Remember Morigis game in the early days was to actually Fool people.. and not just sell copies like he does today !

The letter "o" by the way, should be of absolutely no interest to man or best. Any person who has collected or studied party badges for more than a week should know this. It has no part at all in determining any badges authenticity. Neither does any space between any letter, or any other letter, or most of the banal and mostly insane aspects that forum users seem to come up with in helping them reach a verdict. Not just my 5 cents.. The Law !

[wewelsburg]

First Im not talking GPBs here which I know little of...butIm sorry I disagree,just take a look at the list and examples here in our forum,how many times do u see Ges Gesch and Rzm together NOT many many times.It is the exception not the rule.Most good party badges have round Os,and that is a fact,but some good earlier ones have oval Os. MOST fake ones have oval os,but some have round.And yes it is a good thing to keep in mind,and yes it does matter,how much not that much but it helps me,just as a black light does or a burn test it helps as many common fakes hacve oval os.Then I look at th ereverse to make the final judgement..Most common repros have oval Os,and in conjunction with Ges Gesch and RZM without the number as I have Already pointed out..it is bad.And yes I have collected them for over a week Mr. 93 posts.
I challenge you to go to our list of party badges and examples,ofcourse not complete, but how many times do both stamps appear in our cross section of good examples?NOT many many times.Yes they do exist but to say they are common,or many is a farse.Early Early on yes.But most examples are RZM only,the time teh party existed when RZM was around is much longer than when it wasnt.The ges Gesch badge is rare then,the transitional even more rare.How can a transitional pin be considered many,when most are not.

[okkultist]

Armband is OK; Party pin is a repro.

[Jo Rivett]

First Im not talking GPBs here which I know little of...butIm sorry I disagree,just take a look at the list and examples here in our forum,how many times do u see Ges Gesch and Rzm together NOT many many times.It is the exception not the rule.Most good party badges have round Os,and that is a fact,but some good earlier ones have oval Os. MOST fake ones have oval os,but some have round.And yes it is a good thing to keep in mind,and yes it does matter,how much not that much but it helps me,just as a black light does or a burn test it helps as many common fakes hacve oval os.Then I look at th ereverse to make the final judgement..Most common repros have oval Os,and in conjunction with Ges Gesch and RZM without the number as I have Already pointed out..it is bad.And yes I have collected them for over a week Mr. 93 posts.
I challenge you to go to our list of party badges and examples,ofcourse not complete, but how many times do both stamps appear in our cross section of good examples?NOT many many times.Yes they do exist but to say they are common,or many is a farse.Early Early on yes.But most examples are RZM only,the time teh party existed when RZM was around is much longer than when it wasnt.The ges Gesch badge is rare then,the transitional even more rare.How can a transitional pin be considered many,when most are not.

Hi Wewelsburg

I too know little about the Golden Honor Badge, the post is about this particular Fake of the Party Badge, made in the UK by a guy called Nicholas Morigi around 1980. It does not matter if you don't agree with me, that's a fact, proven, there is no need to discus this badge further. If you believe it is good, then you will have no trouble finding one for between $5-10.- any day of the week. And you may believe what you wish, that is your choice.


I will try and answer your other questions:

The list of Party Badges here is of course not complete, no list could ever be, but it is not a "list" that i would find helpful in using as any point of factual reference at all, maybe for a beginner, or someone who is just interested in a badge or two it is great. I am sure that over the past 6-7 years lots of time and effort has gone into compiling that thread. For me though, it is useless.

There are more than many times this occurs, i am sorry that the party badge database here does not have more examples for you to view, there are though, from various makers as well.

Sorry but you have your facts mixed up, when you say... quote :the time teh party existed when RZM was around is much longer than when it wasnt.

The first NSDAP badge dates from September 1920. (documented)
The first RZM markings on Party badges (that i can prove through period literature) date from June 1934. (although i am sure it was from late 1932-to early 1933, and am in the process of researching this)
So that means there were 14 years of production without RZM markings.
This leaves us with the RZM period, from 1935-1944 and maybe a month or so more depending on area.
So we have 9-10 years RZM period markings compared to 14 years without.

The last part of your post is also wrong. Transitional badges are no rarer than the RZM marked pieces at all. There are a few transitional markings that are rare, from makers, or sub-contractors that either lost their RZM Berechtigungsschein, or stopped making them. The question of the Ges. Gesch. in combination with a makers mark and RZM logo is not specifically joined to the Transitional period. Once again, take the HJ Golden badges, from various makers, or the same sub-contractor. They almost always show all these traits. When we look at Party badges in particular, M1/78 will almost always show all three mentioned markings as well. So it is not uncommon at all.

Of mention here, fact is that the RZM was telling makers how to mark their badges before 1933 (until now i can only prove mid 1932) and they insist on the inclusion of the Ges.Gesch. After the RZM "took full control" if you will, from (around) May 1933, although they specifically tell Badge makers to mark with the RZM logo and the Berechtigungsschein number, there is no mention that i have found today in any of the Mitteilungsblätter that say they must not also mark with Ges.Gesch, or they must leave out the Ges.Gesch. So, especially in the case of Paulmann & Crone, how do we know exactly when he was using all three marks? The front designs point to a very late period, well after the badge was "standardized". So that would place them around 1938/9 Therefore they could not be considered "transitional" at all.

Why 1938/9 is simple. As soon as the NS took over, there was a ban on all new Party Members. This ban was lifted occasionally during the next years, but only lifted completely in May 1939. And seeing as Party badges could only be produced on Order through the RZM, there is no reason to believe that the RZM would have been ordering Tens of thousands of new RZM M1/ marked badges when it was hard for new members to join.
This will also explain why certain makers marks are more common, ie: being in areas, or delivering to areas that it was easier for someone to join the NSDAP during 1933-39.

And as far as any "Standardization" goes, and there was one after 1934, that would have taken a long time to put into action. Old stocks would also have needed to be used up as well, as can be read many times in the RZM announcements. That also explains why we find fully maker marked badges with a roto-engraved RZM logo

Bear in mind, that if you only concentrate on the Party Badge list here, and what you see on the net, then you will not get a full picture of the NSDAP membership badges at all. So just because you cant see a "certain" type of badge on this forum, that does not mean that someone else does not have 100 pieces of that badge, and has been researching that specific badge and specif part of history for a very long time.

If there is anything else you would like to know, just ask But no more about this Fake please. (Yes i do know that there are at least 3 of them on the Party Badge list here, but like i said, for any real info the list is useless, and so are lots of the posts and "assumptions)

[wewelsburg]

It proves to me you have no room for opinion since you havent read my posts,seeing is you think I am disagreeing on the badge's originality.I dont disagree on that IT IS BAD.Im not in agreement on some of your other points and thats fine,but we dont condesend people here,ok I didnt like teh collecting for over a week bit.And just because the party pin was made from 1920 on does not mean there were more made during that early time,there were many more members of teh party which is logic during the time of the rzm.In 1920 to 1933 during prerzm there were MANY less members,as teh third reich grew more members were gained,so how can you possibly say more were made during that trime,who would have worn them?surviving examples alone show that more badges were made during the rzm period and our list is a is a fine cross section.Alot of time went into it and how can naming all those makers to their numbers be completely useless??Please dont disresepect teh members time and energy.It is an existing cross section of what is left today,no not all examples are there,no not every collector is a member here either,but it does represent several serious collectors with large party pin collections,and is very useful at getting a larger picture of what remains,and a clue to the number of variants,makers etc.

[Jo Rivett]

It proves to me you have no room for opinion since you havent read my posts,seeing is you think I am disagreeing on the badge's originality.I dont disagree on that IT IS BAD.Im not in agreement on some of your other points and thats fine,but we dont condesend people here,ok I didnt like teh collecting for over a week bit.And just because the party pin was made from 1920 on does not mean there were more made during that early time,there were many more members of teh party which is logic during the time of the rzm.In 1920 to 1933 during prerzm there were MANY less members,as teh third reich grew more members were gained,so how can you possibly say more were made during that trime,who would have worn them?surviving examples alone show that more badges were made during the rzm period and our list is a is a fine cross section.Alot of time went into it and how can naming all those makers to their numbers be completely useless??Please dont disresepect teh members time and energy.It is an existing cross section of what is left today,no not all examples are there,no not every collector is a member here either,but it does represent several serious collectors with large party pin collections,and is very useful at getting a larger picture of what remains,and a clue to the number of variants,makers etc.

Hi Wewelsburg.

Oh Doch, i have plenty of room for opinion, but i prefer to get opinions from those people who i know are well studied in all aspects of the Early NS and the Party Badge in particular when i need them, and like i said, the NSDAP thread here is good for beginners, and those looking to compare a few badges, for but someone like me,who has studied nothing else except early NS history and the Party Badges in particular longer than anyone on this, on any other internet Forum, it is no good, as my personal knowledge of all aspects of the NS membership pin outweigh anything that can be found here.
Otherwise what happens, as you can see on this forum every week, we just repeat facts and things said over and over and never really reach a consensus.

Wewelsburg, i am sorry but you are once again very wrong here when you say Quote: In 1920 to 1933 during prerzm there were MANY less members,as teh third reich grew more members were gained,so how can you possibly say more were made during that trime "

How i can "Possibly" say this my Friend, is because i am Quoting known Historical, and plain basic Facts, nothing else.
By the end of 1933 (still considered the transitional period) there are a documented 4 million NSDAP members. And in total, (after 1934 to the end of 1944) not even 8 million. Most period sources suggest around 6,5-7,50 million. So you see, once again Basic historical facts tell us that there were more NS Members before the end of 1933, as opposed to after the NS took over.

And, as i am sure many here will agree, the "transitional" period is not only a few months, but a few years, and stretched well into 1935.

Can you now see why i like to look at History first before just saying something? as you see, i have proved you wrong a few times now, and could carry on if you insisted. The truth of the matter is that i have a very good idea about what i am talking about, when i say something, it will have been researched from all angles, unless i say it is my opinion (which sometimes is all we have in rare cases). I do however chose to consult the Period facts first, and not rely on what Forum users say or think when it comes to basic history.

And as far as insulting anyone here goes, quite the opposite, did i not write: Quote: "I am sure that over the past 6-7 years lots of time and effort has gone into compiling that thread. For me though, it is useless."

For me, this discussion is over, Some users here obviously have their own idea about History and would like to change it to suit their posts, and items.


Have a nice Weekend everyone !