questions about pre 1933 SA brownshirts

[OnnoP]

Dear forum members,

I have some questions about pre 1933 SA brownshirts. I know they did not have schoulder boards, but I've seen footage showing collar tabs and collar piping, but also of brownshirts with only tabs and no piping, and even of shirts bearing no insignia besides the kampfbinde and early partypin. Am I correct in saying that pre 1933 there were no strict regulations and thus many variations concerning these brownshirts? And furthermore I was wondering if anybody has ever come across one of the very early shirts? I've seen the wonderfull 1933 shirt that Bob Coleman has posted on this forum, but I'd love to see an even earlier one! And last but not least, Claus Philipp currently has two brownshirts on his site, one of which has brown tabs with 23/16 in chainstitch. Anybody know which Gruppe this is? And my other question about this shirt is: is are these machine or handsewn? I can't tell from the pictures, and I've been told to stay away from machinesewn SA tabs (eventhough allmost all shirts in the past years surfacing on the sites of german dealers like Weitze and Philipp are 1934 pattern shirts with machinesewn tabs). Many thanks in advance for any comment/input! Appreciate it!

[luftwaffe blue]

Do you mean the Berlin shirt? Ive no idea whats going on with that creation, has a late shoulder strap on and what seems to be a shoelace for piping!!
The brown collar shirt is gruppe Niedersachsen if the buttons are gold coloured though someone will be able to ID the collars im sure..it also looks perfectly mint and never worn..

[Bob Coleman]

I Have Seen Very Few Early Brownshirts, As They Would Have Had Their Insignia Updated. It Seems As Though A Number Of Stripped Brownshirts Were Found And Restored In Europe. The Mistake Was Machine Sewing The Insignia To The Shirts. As The Insignia And Kampfbinde Would Be Removed For Cleaning, The Machine Stiching Error Comes From Following The Manner For Mounting Issue Military Uniforms. Most Early Uniforms Of Any Organization Had Hand Stiched In Lieu Of Machined Applied Insignia

[Johann Anton]

Hi Onno, This SA brownshirt I believe is from 33-34 time period. The set came with a pre-RZM SA dagger, marked to the same district. The piping, tabs and armband are all hand applied. It does have the right side shoulderboard. The armband is tacked in three places. The interesting thing on this one, is that the armband's hack is machine embroidered. Perhaps another pre-RZM oddity...

[Johann Anton]

...I also have an HJ ensemble from those same years, and it appears to me that the shirts are a more pale color. Maybe just from laundering...

[luftwaffe blue]

love that shirt Johann

[OnnoP]

thank you gentlemen

Thank you gentlemen for yout input and the great images. As far as pre or postwar upgrading of early brownshirts: the footage I mentioned shows most of the very early brownshirts having very distinct pointy pocketflaps. I also believe the same type of shirt is worn by Himmler in a very well known photograph of him in early brownshirt (with no insignia exept for the very early SS armband with white stripes) and black kepi. So I assume that these shirts, even when upgraded, should still be very recognisable thanks to that specific feature. But no brownshirt that I have ever seen, at dealers sites, shows or collection images had this type of pocketflap. But I find it hard to imagine that none survived (which of course doen't mean any did, it just proves my lack of imagination Any comments on this?

[Bob Coleman]

Prior To 1933, No Central Source Or Control Oversaw The S A Uniform Standards. Shirts Were Obtained From Various Sources Making Any Kind Of Statement Of Standardization Difficult.
Bob

[OnnoP]

one more thing...

One more thing I wanted to ask: I am saving up for one of the early 1933 type SA kepi's on Helmut Weitze's site and have a question about what type of brownshirt will match this. Of course a 1933 type would suit best, but seeing as none are likely to become available to me anytime soon, I was wondering if a 1934 pattern, like the one on Philipp's site (and no, not the weird Berlin setup: that one seemed odd to me as well) is possible. I myself believe this to be a possible combination, because I assume that there would have been a transitional period between 1933 and 1934. Political brownshirts and headgear were even worn throughout the whole 3rd reich period with different, out of regulation configurations as mentioned in Jeff Clark's book, so I take it this could also apply for the SA (at least around the '33/34 period). Anybody agrees/disagrees?

[queensman1559]

If you look at some of the earliest photo's of brownshirts, you'll notice that they have 'button down' shirt collars.

[Br. James]

Hi Onno,

As I understand it, the matter of collar piping was related to kepi piping. The coffeecan style of SA kepi was originally neither piped nor including a colored section above the turnup, but eventually the colored top was introduced for officers only, followed by colored tops for all ranks. The colors for tops were the same as the base color of the collar tabs. At the same time, piping was introduced, first for officers only and then for NCOs, and this matched the collar piping on Traditions Brown Shirts.

As Bob Coleman has indicated, the timing for these uniform revisions and introductions is quite difficult to state as a standard, since the SA was growing regionally at different rates and prior to Röhm's return from Bolivia and Hitler's appointment as German Chancellor, uniform matters were way down on the SA's priority list during the Kämpfzeit!

Br. James

[sgstandard]

Shirts

Angolia's book, "Cloth Insignia of the NSDA)P and SA" has some information on this subject. The earliest mention of collar piping is the SA regulations from November 1926. Collar piping was in the same color as the Sturm. There were only 4 ranks. In August 1929, many of the 1926 colors had changed to different colors. A 1931 chart shows that the collar piping is now bi-color. The same 1931 order changed the rank structure as well.
Finding ANY original early brownshirt that is "untouched" is difficult enough, but trying to piece together a complete, correct SA uniform from this early era is not only difficult, but it would be hard to ascertain what is appropriate, as it's difficult to get the correct information, since the uniform items were not standardized.
Shoulderboards were introduced in 1933, and photos of the 1933 Reichsparteitag show the SA wearing them at that event, so that gives you SOME idea as to the time frame. I've included some photos of my early SA shirt. It's a long, "tuck-in" style, has no RZM tag, has early, non-standard sewn-in chest buttons (They're usually held by metal rings), and real shell neck buttons.

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Driver's qualification badge..... wool diamond appears to be hand-made

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Buttons... 3 tiny shell buttons down the front, and chest button....

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Found in breast pocket......