SA Kepi--Warthe or Oberrhein?

[stonemint]

I was successful in obtaining this Kepi recently, but I had to fight to get it. Anyway, do you SA experten believe it is Warthe or Oberrhein? The Saris/Halcomb book has a silver button for both Gruppen, which doesn't make sense. I believe Warthe due to the museum or Film studio stamps, much like my Schlesian Kepi. Any help would be appreciated--detailed pics are on the Cloth Headgear forum (and colt45 posted an NSKK kepi in that same thread that he has questions about).:

[Bob Coleman]

Definitely Gruppe Warthe. There Is Some Discussion That During The War The Buttons Were All Changed To Silver. However, I Have Not Seen A Copy Of Such An Order And If It Did Exist, Likely Wartime Shortages Curbed Implementation Of Such A Change.

[stonemint]

Thanks, Bob--you reinforced my thoughts.

BTW, we all know the order of rarity for WH visors--in terms of EM/NCO SA Kepis, what is the order of rarity for Gruppe colors, ranging from most common to the rarest?

[Bob Coleman]

Thanks, Bob--you reinforced my thoughts.

BTW, we all know the order of rarity for WH visors--in terms of EM/NCO SA Kepis, what is the order of rarity for Gruppe colors, ranging from most common to the rarest?

PRIOR TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE COMMUNIST CONTROL OF EASTERN EUROPE, THE RARE COLORS WOULD HAVE BEEN THOSE OF S A GRUPPE THAT FELL IN TO THE CONTROL OF THE SOVIET ARMY TODAY, I THINK THE FLOW OF MATERIAL FROM EASTERN EUROPE IN THE PAST FIFTEEN YEARS HAS MADE COLORED TOPS FROM THOSE AREAS AS COMMON AS TOPS FROM THE AREAS THAT FELL UNDER CONTROL OF THE WESTERN ALLIES. IN MY OPINION, THE RAREST COLOR TO FIND WOULD BE CARMINE, WHICH WAS WORN BY MEMBERS OF THE S A HIGH COMMAND AND MEMBERS OF FELDHERRNHALLE. I WOULD FOLLOW THIS WITH STAFF RED WITH THE OTHER GRUPPE COLORS FAIRLY EVEN ON AVAILABILITY.

[Pascal Bernhard]

Definitely Gruppe Warthe. There Is Some Discussion That During The War The Buttons Were All Changed To Silver. However, I Have Not Seen A Copy Of Such An Order And If It Did Exist, Likely Wartime Shortages Curbed Implementation Of Such A Change.

I agree with Bob, if the kepi has the "museum/theatre" eastern country stamps, we can suppose it's a Warthe SA group cap, but... All the cornflower blue topped kepis I've found in Alsace are undiscutable "Oberrhein" caps with "white" front buttons.
They were issued in 1940/41, I don't have the orgabook in the hands at the moment I'm writing this lines, but in the 1943 edition, aren't they listed, both, WARTHE/OBERRHEIN with white/silver buttons

[sgstandard]

Kepi

I'm not sure I agree. Every late brownshirt and tunic I've seen that has the white or yellow celophan (enlisted) piped later style tabs, the buttons were always silver. That was the whole reason for having the yellow or white tab piping, as I understand. Therefore, I feel it could be Warthe OR Oberrhein.