Gold HJ Badge! Im thinking BAD!!!

[Wiegert]

Ok I found this one on a dealers web site. I really am thinking it is BAD BAD BAD!!!

For one look at the clasp. I have never seen any German badge use this sort of clasp. Some one tell me I am wrong about this. I am deeming it a FAKE!!!

The dealer is selling this item for $385.00

Im thinking its worth more like $0.85

[Wiegert]

Back

Here is what is macking me believe that it is FAKE!!!! Also I am thinking that the hinge is horribly wrong as well.

Cheers
Brian

[Martin Harding]

Hello Brian, Yes your doubts, sadly are warranted, although the RZM (Reichzeugmeisterei der NSDAP) National material control office are applied in the correct manner. (M1/120 represents the contractor Wilhelm Deumer, Ludenscheid) From my perspective the pin assembly is not correct for this manufacturer and certainly it lacks the quality of an original. Certainly the ones I have handled in the past have been of a much higher quality!!!
Regards Martin

[Martin Harding]

Hello Brain, To give you a good comparrison, please compare your example with the image below of an original Badge, I think you will perhaps agree the quality difference is quite staggering.

[Mike TM]

Hello, csn you inform to us about this dealer?
Mike

[Wiegert]

The Dealers Site is Dan Kelley's Treasures of the Third Reich. Here is the link to the page with the bad gold hj badge: https://www.dkelley.net/hitler_youth.htm

It does appear that he does have some good pieces for sale but at those prices he is asking I have taken my buisness elsewhere time & time again.

I hope this reply helps

Cheers
Brian

[Garry M.]

Hi Martin, the badge you show is not good I'm afraid. The MM of BM/1 122 is the main giveaway here.

[Martin Harding]

Badge is Genuine

Hello, perhaps to clarify the RZM in more detail would then illustrate that this Badge you questioned is indeed pre 1945 manufacture. The Reichzeugmeisteri der NSDAP (RZM) was established at amost exactly the time Adolf Hitler become the Chancellor. And by 1934, the RZM was in place with a director, staff and offices in Munich at Tegernseer 210.
The name Reichzeucmeisterei means literally, the National Material Control office.
Each firm authorised to produce or sell RZM material was issued an RZM registration number and it was required that the number appear on all finished products they made or sold. The registration number always consisted of (1) a letter, which indicated the raw material used in manufacturing or the class of trade, (2) a number which indicated the product or type of trade, (3) a slash (/) and (4) the number of the firm. In some cases collectors may encounter RZM numbers where the authorization number is followed by a second slash (/) and yet another number, i.e m1/122/42. The final numbers indicate the year of manufacture (1942)
The letters used were
A = Ausrutung - equiptment manufacturer
B = Baumwolle - Cotton fabric manufacturer
D = Dienstkleidung - service clothing
G = Grosshandel - wholesaler
K = Kleidereinzelhandel - retailer of clothing
L = Leder - leather manufacturer
M = Metall - metal manufacture
V = Veraufsstellen - retailer
W = wool fabric manufacturer
For the metal category and the numbers used between the M and the / in the Metall manufacturing category are
M1 = Insignia
M2 = sub contractors
M3 = symbols
M4 = Belt buckles
M5 = uniform fittings
M6 = Alumium products
M7 = Daggers and Knives
M8 = Metal accessories
M9 = Meeting Badges (Tinnies)
M10 Musical instruments
The registration number on the Badge, you question has caused many controversial opinions, however it is reckonised as a legitimate hallmark among leading experts - It is the mark of I. Deutschbein G.m.b.H., Euskirchen.
I recommend perhaps further study of the following Reference Books by such legends as Jurgen brinkmann, Kurt-G.Klietmann, Jorg Nimmergut, Detlev Niemann, Wolfgang Herman and R Kahl for accurate information.
Regards Martin

[Garry M.]

Hi Martin, I'm aware of the info on the RZM but was until now unaware that the names you mention consider this MM as being good. There is always much to learn but this MM is generally considered to be incorrect and a hodge-podge fantasy.

[Martin Harding]

Perhaps it is the B which leads people to believe this is a fake Badge, if it just read as RZM code M1 / 122. However the B is the initial for Beamten, the German word for official, hence BM1 /122 and not M1 /122.
Regards Martin

[sjl]

Sorry, but there was no "BM" RZM prefix. I don't know where the idea it that it stands for "Beamten" comes from. I'd love too know the source of this information.

This "BM1/122" badge is almost universally regarded as a fake. This identical mark appears on fake HJ Gold with Oakleaves badges as well.

The fakers mistook badges marked "B" indicating a replacement of a numbered badge with the "M" code for "Metall" under the RZM, and squished them together into an incomprehensible BM mark. Nowhere in RZM records have I seen a "BM" prefix to the license number.

Fake HJ Oakleaves badges with the "BM" mark have appeared in several reference books as real. They now are generally accepted as wrong.

The badge that started this thread is generally accepted as genuine. The "B" shows it to be a replacement badge for a numbered issue. This maker (M1/120) used the unusual swing pin clasp shown.

But if you see a "BM" RZM prefix, run fast and hang onto your wallet.

[stuart a.]

have to agree with stephen i think this is a good badge i was surprised to see all the negative thought towards it,yes the back is diff to a standard badge but i allways beleived this to be an acceptable variant .
the badge shown below it with the bm1/122 now that one i would be worried about
stu

[Don Scowen]

I agree with Stephen as well, nothing wrong with the pin on the first badge, this type of fixing is quite often found on certain TR pins, this being one of them.

I most certainly would not want the BM badge in my collection.

Sorry
Don

[dogtagman]

The single B means "B-stück" this means that this is a B-Piece also known as a second piece. The B piece could be bought by the owner as a piece for everyday wearing. Check Weitze´s site for more B pieces, also the needle is common to find on this type of badge. In my opinion the first piece shown is a original one, weitze is selling the exact same pieces! The second one posted is a fake i would say, never seen the BM mark...

[Martin Harding]

I am sorry to say that the first Badge is certainly not genuine. The casting is too crude and the lettering is far from crisp. To say that German period awards are of extreme high quality, would be the understatement of the year. It will sufice for me to say i certainly would not want it in my collection
Regards Martin