Question about M5 makers - did they make metal items??

[gebirgaussie]

Can anyone tell me if the M5 makers ever made metal insignia for uniforms, or did they only make cloth items?? It seems likely to me that they would have made both, but I am not sure, which is why I am asking.
I have a metal Edelweiss badge with KB 42 on the back. I am fairly sure the 42 is 1942. I have looked through lists and lists of makers codes and the closest match seems to be KB M5/120 Karl Benrrup, Bielefeld.
M5 manufacturers made uniform accessories.
Most edelweiss badges come with an M1 maker mark (if they have a maker mark that is, as many do not). At least most were made in M1 factories. But I wonder if an M5 manufacturer could have made these items as well, considering these badges are a uniform accessory?

Ian

[Peter J.]

Hi Ian,

I can't give a conclusive answer, but here's a quote from "Nazi Para-Military Organisations and their badges" by Ray Cowdery:

"We are here concerned with the Metall category and the numbers used between the M and the / in the Metall category are:
M1 =insignia
M2 =sub-contractors
M3 =symbols
M4 =belt buckles
M5 =uniform fittings
M6 =aluminum products
M7 =daggers and knifes
M8 =metall accessories
M9 =meeting badges
M10=musical instruments

It is very important to remember that the RZM system applied only to Nazi party equipment and insignia ONLY. The control did not extend to non-party organisations, like Army, Navy, etc."

A few questions Ian; according to you, the badge is marked KB 42. If there is no M#/ as well, I find it difficult to make that connection. Further more, what kind of unit would be eligible for an edelweiss, HJ, NSKK, etc? And if so, would these units be supplied with different badges than the armed forces? I hope this will help you out

KR
Peter

[gebirgaussie]

Hi Peter,
Thank you for the information.
I have seen this many times on military equipment: an initial instead of an RZM code. I can only assume that this was a prestige thing with some manufacturers. They wanted to leave their mark on the products that they made. I have another edelweiss badge (an SA polizei one) marked CTD, which is without a doubt the initials of Christian Theodore Dicke, who so often left his initials on his items. C.T.D. (CTD). This is a World War II German Factory Official Brass, C. Th. Dicke, Lüdenscheid maker. Also sometimes appears as C.TH in a "D" lozenge with raised GES. GESCH. This manufacturer made all sorts of items, particularly badges, belt buckles, buttons. RZM code M1/47 Christian Theodore Dicke. Christian obviously obeyed the rules and only put his initials on military items, not his M code. But it would appear that many other manufacturers proudly stamped their M codes willy nilly on just about everything they made, political or not. The vast majority of edelweiss badges, if marked, have an M1 code on them!! And as we all know, the edelweiss badge was a purely military item belonging to the Gebirgsjager, with only a few exceptions.
I am certain that the RZM codes were applied much more freely than what your post and a lot of militaria experts suggest. The M symbols appear on lots and lots of military items, the vast majority of which are not associated with the nazi political party but are purely military items. The boundaries between what was military and what was nazi became so blurred during the Vehrmacht era, especially by the middle of the war, that I think it would be impossible to distinguish between the two.
But I digress from my original question. And it appears that the answer is yes, some M5 makers did also work with metal fabrication. Thank you very much for the list.
Regards
Ian

[gebirgaussie]

Peter,
I will post my response to the issue of RZM codes and Maker Marks in another thread later. Here is a partial reply.
1)You are 100% correct that the symbol RZM logo, of which there were four distinct versions, was only used on non-military political items from 1935 onwards. Two of these codes were for a long time assumed to be fakes, but now, although we do see them on some faked items, they did indeed exist on real items. These include the RZM in one circle only, with OR without the cross through the Z.
2)The M+digit/+maker number code was used from 1935 onwards for these items, when all factories wishing to make political items for the NSDAP or its formations, SS, SA and the like, had to reluctantly abandon their company logos and use the number code. However I have seen this M code on some military items, particularly Gebirgsjager edelweiss badges, which leaves me stumped for an answer. Did some manufacturers get confused by the regulation when it was first introduced and started putting this code on everything??? Or was it too difficult to keep changing the stamps in their presses and easier to just keep using the numbers??? I seem to keep running into this question time and time again, yet no-one has ever been able to offer a conclusive answer for me. During the transition from the company logo to the RZM code, both a manufacturers logo/full name and RZM code, are sometimes seen together on the one item. So perhaps a certain amount of confusion relating to the proper use of these codes did exist, at least for a short time?
3)The 3 or 2 letter code seen on some items came about as follows: until 1940 the whole factory name was used, after that codes like “cof” were used for protection in the war (allied forces would otherwise know where the factory was located > bombing). Peter, you may be correct in suggesting that the initials on my badge may not stand for a factory name. They may just be "meaningless" letters from a long lost code, but I am convinced at least that CTD stands for Christian Theodore Dicke's factory. These initials appear far too often to mean anything else, and always appear on uniform accessories and insignia, the kind of which he manufactured. It therefore seems like a reasonable assumption to me that the letters on items from other factories may actually be the initials of their factory name. I could be wrong! If anyone can answer these puzzles, please feel free to jump in!

Ian