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    #1

    SA Gruppe Westmark??

    Which city was the headquarters of SA-Gruppe Westmark?

    Many thanks for your helpful response!

    Br. James
    Tags: None
    #2
    Koblenz.

    Comment

      #3
      I am looking for photo’s of the SA Obergruppe Westmark Command Flag in case you run into any.
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        Thanks very much to HPL2008! I am trying to make sense of two maps of the SA-Gruppen geography -- one found on pg. 266 of "The SA: A Historical Perspective," by Jill Halcomb (Crown/Agincourt Publishers, 1985), and another titled "SA/NSKK Group Marks" found online under "GermanDaggers.com." "GermanDaggers.com" provides a map of Germany with SA-Gruppe Westmark indicated, also showing Saarbrucken as the HQ city, while Jill Halcomb does not include Westmark by that name under her "SA Group Table"...though she does show a similar geographical map to what "GermanDaggers.com" provides, though on her map that same geographical area is identified as SA-Gruppe Oberrhein, with an HQ city of Strassberg. "GermanDaggers.com" does not include an SA-Gruppe Oberrhein.

        To make things even more interesting -- in response to HPL2008's response -- Halcomb shows Koblenz as the HQ city of SA-Gruppe Hessen, while "GermanDaggers.com" lists Frankfurt as the HQ city of SA-Gruppe Hessen!

        I may be completely wrong here, but I have the feeling that the reunification of the Saarland in 1935 may be at work within these two maps, causing confusion if the SA Groups situated in that region had to undergo geographical restructuring shortly after that referendum. I hope anyone with further information on this matter will come forward...and many thanks again to HPL2008.

        Br. James

        Comment

          #5
          Following the NS year book from 1942, it was for the Westmark the SA-Gruppe Kurpfalz with its headquarter in Mannheim with the Obergruppenführer Herbert Fust. For 1944, the headquarter was in Sankt Ingbert.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Br. James View Post
            Thanks very much to HPL2008! I am trying to make sense of two maps of the SA-Gruppen geography -- one found on pg. 266 of "The SA: A Historical Perspective," by Jill Halcomb (Crown/Agincourt Publishers, 1985), and another titled "SA/NSKK Group Marks" found online under "GermanDaggers.com." "GermanDaggers.com" provides a map of Germany with SA-Gruppe Westmark indicated, also showing Saarbrucken as the HQ city, while Jill Halcomb does not include Westmark by that name under her "SA Group Table"...though she does show a similar geographical map to what "GermanDaggers.com" provides, though on her map that same geographical area is identified as SA-Gruppe Oberrhein, with an HQ city of Strassberg. "GermanDaggers.com" does not include an SA-Gruppe Oberrhein.
            SA-Gruppe Westmark was re-designated SA-Gruppe Mittelrhein on 1 July 1941. Straßburg was the location of the HQ of SA-Gruppe Oberrhein:

            SA-Gruppe Westmark (later Mittelrhein) (HQ Koblenz) covered the Rheinprovinz [Rhine Province] and parts of the Provinz Hessen-Nassau [Province of Hesse-Nassau] and was later extended to include Luxemburg after its annexation.
            SA-Gruppe Hessen (HQ Frankfurt) covered parts of the Freistaat Hessen [Free State of Hesse], parts of the Provinz Hessen [Province of Hesse] and parts of the Provinz Hessen-Nassau [Province of Hesse-Nassau].
            SA-Gruppe Oberrhein (HQ Straßburg) covered parts of the Freistaat Baden [Free State of Baden] and the Elsaß [Alsace]. This Gruppe was formed during the war, with the Baden parts of its territory coming from the former SA-Gruppe Südwest. (Südwest had covered Baden and Württemberg and became SA-Gruppe Neckar, consisting of Württemberg and the rest of Baden.)


            Originally posted by Br. James View Post
            To make things even more interesting -- in response to HPL2008's response -- Halcomb shows Koblenz as the HQ city of SA-Gruppe Hessen, while "GermanDaggers.com" lists Frankfurt as the HQ city of SA-Gruppe Hessen!
            The data in Halcomb is an error. Actually, Koblenz as the HQ for Hessen doesn't make sense to begin with, as Koblenz isn't even in Hesse. (Frankfurt is.)


            Originally posted by Reinhard2 View Post
            Following the NS year book from 1942, it was for the Westmark the SA-Gruppe Kurpfalz with its headquarter in Mannheim with the Obergruppenführer Herbert Fust. For 1944, the headquarter was in Sankt Ingbert.
            Kurpfalz is a different SA-Gruppe. It covered the Regierungsbezirk Rheinpfalz [Government District Rhenish Palatinate], the Saargebiet [Saar Territory] and Rheinhessen [Rhenish-Hesse] and was later extended to include Lothringen [Lorraine] after its annexation.

            The Gruppe was established on 1 April 1934 and then existed concurrently to the others listed above.
            Last edited by HPL2008; 08-22-2020, 03:42 PM.

            Comment

              #7
              The headquarter of SA-Gruppe Mittelrhein of the NSDAP Gau Moselland was indeed in 1942 and 1944 in Koblenz. And also as SA-Gruppe Westmark in 1938.

              Comment

                #8
                wah. that's a killer kommandoflagge! thx for posting.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Wonderful information here -- thanks so much, dear colleagues!!

                  Br. James

                  Comment

                    #10
                    As an afterthought, here is the full listing of SA-Gruppen as they appeared in the 1936, 1937 and 1943 editions of the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP (I don't have the other editions):


                    1936:
                    • SA-Gruppe Bayerische Ostmark (Regierungsbezirk Niederbayern, Oberpfalz und Oberfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg (Provinz Mark Brandenburg und Groß-Berlin)
                    • SA-Gruppe Franken (Regierungsbezirk Mittel- und Unterfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hansa (freie Stadt Hamburg und Provinz Mecklenburg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hessen (Provinz Hessen, Teile der Provinz Hessen-Nassau)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hochland (Regierungsbezirk Oberbayern und Schwaben)
                    • SA-Gruppe Kurpfalz (Regierungsbezirk Rheinpfalz, Saargebiet und Rheinhessen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Mitte (Provinz Sachsen und Freistaat Anhalt)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niederrhein (Teil der Rheinprovinz und des Ruhrgebietes)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niedersachsen (Freistaat Braunschweig und Teil der Provinz Hannover)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordmark (Provinz Schleswig-Holstein)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordsee (Freistaat Oldenburg und Teile der Provinz Hannover)
                    • SA-Gruppe Ostland (Provinz Ostpreußen und Freie Stadt Danzig)
                    • SA-Gruppe Ostmark (Provinz Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Pommern (Provinz Pommern und Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Sachsen (Freistaat Sachsen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Schlesien (Provinz Ober- und Niederschlesien)
                    • SA-Gruppe Südwest (Freistaat Baden und Württemberg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Thüringen (Freistaat Thüringen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Westfalen (Provinz Westfalen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Westmark (Rheinprovinz und Teil der Provinz Hessen-Nassau)


                    1937:
                    • SA-Gruppe Bayerische Ostmark (Regierungsbezirk Niederbayern, Oberpfalz und Oberfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg (Provinz Mark Brandenburg und Groß-Berlin)
                    • SA-Gruppe Franken (Regierungsbezirk Mittel- und Unterfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hansa (freie Stadt Hamburg und Provinz Mecklenburg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hessen (Teile des Freistaats Hessen [Oberhessen], der Provinz Hessen und Hessen-Nassau)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hochland (Regierungsbezirk Oberbayern und Schwaben)
                    • SA-Gruppe Kurpfalz (Regierungsbezirk Rheinpfalz, Saargebiet und Rheinhessen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Mitte (Provinz Sachsen und Freistaat Anhalt)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niederrhein (Teile der Rheinprovinz und des Ruhrgebietes)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niedersachsen (Teil der Provinz Hannover und Freistaat Braunschweig)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordmark (Provinz Schleswig-Holstein, Freie Stadt Lübeck)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordsee (Teile der Provinz Hannover und Westfalen, Freistaat Oldenburg, Freie Stadt Bremen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Ostland (Provinz Ostpreußen und Freistaat Danzig)
                    • SA-Gruppe Ostmark (Provinz Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Pommern (Provinz Pommern und Teile von Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Sachsen (Freistaat Sachsen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Schlesien (Provinz Ober- und Niederschlesien)
                    • SA-Gruppe Südwest (Freistaat Baden und Württemberg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Thüringen (Freistaat Thüringen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Westfalen (Provinz Westfalen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Westmark (Rheinprovinz und Teil der Provinz Hessen-Nassau)


                    1943:
                    • SA-Gruppe Alpenland (Gau Oberdonau, Salzburg, Tirol-Vorarlberg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Bayernwald (Regierungsbezirk Niederbayern, Oberpfalz und Oberfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg (Provinz Mark Brandenburg und Groß-Berlin)
                    • SA-Gruppe Donau (Gau Niederdonau, Wien)
                    • SA-Gruppe Elbe (Provinz Sachsen und Freistaat Anhalt)
                    • SA-Gruppe Franken (Regierungsbezirk Mittel- und Unterfranken)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hansa (freie Stadt Hamburg und Mecklenburg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hessen (Teile des Freistaats Hessen [Oberhessen], der Provinz Hessen und Hessen-Nassau)
                    • SA-Gruppe Hochland (Regierungsbezirk Oberbayern und Schwaben)
                    • SA-Gruppe Kurpfalz (Regierungsbezirk Rheinpfalz, Saargebiet, Rheinhessen, Lothringen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Mittelrhein (Rheinprovinz, Teil der Provinz Hessen-Nassau, Luxemburg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Neckar (Teil des Freistaats Baden und Württemberg)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niederrhein (Teile der Rheinprovinz und des Ruhrgebietes)
                    • SA-Gruppe Niedersachsen (Teil der Provinz Hannover und Freistaat Braunschweig)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordmark (Provinz Schleswig-Holstein, Freie Stadt Lübeck)
                    • SA-Gruppe Nordsee (Teile der Provinz Hannover und Westfalen, Freistaat Oldenburg, Freie Stadt Bremen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Oberrhein (Teile des Freistaates Baden und Elsaß)
                    • SA-Gruppe Oder (Provinz Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Pommern (Provinz Pommern und Teile von Grenzmark)
                    • SA-Gruppe Sachsen (Freistaat Sachsen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Schlesien (Provinz Ober- und Niederschlesien)
                    • SA-Gruppe Sudeten (Reichsgau Sudetenland)
                    • SA-Gruppe Südmark (Gau Steiermark und Kärnten)
                    • SA-Gruppe Tannenberg (Provinz Ostpreußen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Thüringen (Freistaat Thüringen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Warthe (Reichsgau Wartheland)
                    • SA-Gruppe Weichsel (Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreußen)
                    • SA-Gruppe Westfalen (Provinz Westfalen)
                    • 1 like

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Thanks so much, my friend -- very helpful information indeed!

                      Br. James

                      Comment

                        #12
                        This has been a very good thread, and I have learned a ton of information. Yes, I took notes!
                        Thank you to everyone for this. James, thanks for getting this started!

                        These are facts that will always be useful!
                        John

                        Comment

                          #13
                          The lists as for 1935 and 1937 are correct to the standards of the Organisationsbuch and
                          also as for the adress-lists from the Oberste SA-FÜhrung. In these (1935, 1936 and 1937)
                          was also mentioned: Hilfswerk Nordwest with its headquarters at Bad Godesberg am Rhein
                          with the standarte NW1, NW2, NW 4 and NW 6. This was in 1935 and 1936. In 1937 no
                          numbers were included anymore.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            was posted double.
                            What not was mentioned in the OB is that quite some units were no longer active
                            (stillgelegte Dienststellen). List date is March 1942.
                            For example in Westfalen: Reiterstandarte 65, 165, 66, 166, 67, 68, 69 and 70.
                            In 1942 the HQ from Mittelrhein were at Koblenz.


                            I do not comment Halcomb, but she is wrong with many she says! She claimed
                            she could read German, but from the documents she had, it is obvious she could not!
                            Last edited by wilhelm Saris; 08-24-2020, 08:35 AM.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Thanks to my friends John and Wim -- I always appreciate hearing from you!

                              Cheers, and do stay safe,

                              Br. James

                              Comment

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