RZM and Ges. Gesch.

[Gdynia1991]

So.. I am getting conflicting information about the originality of Pins, medals, belts having RZM logo and Ges. Gesch. struck on the same relic. With RZM and Ges. Gesch. struck on a particular relic I have seen that many experts would call the relic unauthentic. Is this a general rule of thumb or is this completely not factual.

[Military]

So.. I am getting conflicting information about the originality of Pins, medals, belts having RZM logo and Ges. Gesch. struck on the same relic. With RZM and Ges. Gesch. struck on a particular relic I have seen that many experts would call the relic unauthentic. Is this a general rule of thumb or is this completely not factual.

Completely not factual? There are instances of items with only Ges. Gesch (meaning trademarked); and items only showing the RZM (national material control office number); as well as showing both. Having RZM and Ges. Gesch. struck on a particular relic also does not guarantee that the item is genuine or not genuine.

Mil

[ivbaust]

As already said, these two markings are two separate topics.

„Ges. Gesch.“ means „Gesetzlich Geschützt“ (protected by law) and denotes the protection of intellectual property or design. This is a legal topic.

The Reichszeugmeisterei issued (against payment) licenses to manufacturing companies, which allowed them to manufacture or wholesale political items. Each license was issued with a particular number (so-called „RZM number“), which identified each particular manufacturer. This is a political topic and had nothing to do with the other legal topic.

[Gdynia1991]

Right. Thanks for the information. I did read that on political nsdap pins that if you see both it typically dictates a fake. Now good to know that is not the case for most items out there.

[sjl]

The English equivalent of "Gesetzlich Geschützt" is "Trademarked" or "Copyrighted", meaning legally protected against unlicensed use. It applied to designs or images owned by a person or a company (in this case the NSDAP). GES. GESCH. has been in use since the 1800s.

The introduction of the RZM in 1934 for NSDAP items made GES. GESCH. redundant, as it was its own system of licensing and legal protection. A very few RZM-licensed manufacturers used both together for a very short time, but always with an RZM code number. If you see the RZM logo and GES. GESCH. together but with no RZM manufacturer code number, chances are very good you have a fake.

[Military]

Hi sjl,

Just for this conversation, do we have examples of "exceptions" where the RZM and Ges Gesch text appears but with no RZM Code but deemed original?

Mil

[sjl]

Jo Rivett and his magic microscope have pronounced this one original over at another forum. It is so worn I think it is hard to tell, but it is possible. Most at least would still have a maker's mark in addition to a plain RZM logo and any GES GESCH, like this Paul Meybauer badge out of JR's book.


Examples like this are so rare that I'd always be wondering about them if they were in my collection.


morigi thread GENUINE abz 1.jpg

Paul Meybauer badge.jpg

[sjl]

The clearly fake ones are the Moragi specials, you can find anywhere (with or without RZM M1 license numbers...)


Often (but not always) the "M" in the RZM logo looks funky in fakes - either too tall or looking like the Macdonald's golden arches.


morigi 70ziger typisch.jpg

ww2-german-nazi-waffen-ss-membership-pin-ges-gesch-rzm-m1172-marked-totenkopf_0.jpeg

[sjl]

Here's another original badge that shows the quick transition from maker's mark to RZM, and then to RZM code number. This Assmann badge has marker name, GES GESCH and RZM logo and manufacturer license number.

Interesting thing is the RZM license number ("17") has been added after the badge was finished by manually striking it on the back to older badges in stock. The requirement for the RZM logo and then the issuing of licensing numbers, then finally the "M1" prefx, came in within months of each other. This badge had barely been made when the rules changed and they needed to add their unique RZM license number.

[sjl]

Again, Paul Meybauer seemed for a while to be doing his own thing. Here is what I think is an original early badge with RZM logo, GES GESCH and his RZM license number ("21") alone before the "M1" prefixes came in. But still, no GES GESCH and RZM logo alone.


It is also likely that you keep seeing "GES GESCH" on pinplates for a while and not on badges as makers used up old pin attachment stock.

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