Blood Order Medal Index/Registry

[Kavalier]

Would any experienced collectors be interested in contributing to an online medal index/registry for public benefit? While I have already worked through some of the details, this thread is more about gauging community interest. I simply want to know if anyone is willing to provide the public with a list of Blood Order medals complete with their summary information to reduce the number of medal identification requests, as well as empower buyers to know if their next purchase is authentic and sellers to market an accredited item.

Let me know. Thanks.

Best,
Kav

[JoeW]

Are you aware that there is a book listing the recipients of the first 1500 odd BO numbers? Are you suggesting creating a list of the post 1938 awards? And how will any list empower buyers to avoid fakes?

[Br. James]

"And how will any list empower buyers to avoid fakes?"

A very good question, Joe -- one that I have heard/seen also raised when discussing the possibility of compiling a centralized list of GPB recipients...or at least of the first 100,000 members of the NSDAP. Indeed, I often ask this question when discussing a particular GPB, as some collectors appear to believe that if they locate the name and biographical data about the person who held that NSDAP Membership Number, that that information ensures that that badge is genuine! Not so!

While I am always happy to check my own list for a particular number, I always ask to see photos of the badge(s) that carry that number, and sometimes it will turn out that a number is verified but the badge a collector has that bears that number is a fake. Life just goes like that sometimes!

Br. James

[TooDeep]

Are you aware that there is a book listing the recipients of the first 1500 odd BO numbers? ?

what is the name of this book?

[schoenwurf]

Klaus Patzwall - Das Ehrenzeichen vom 9. November 1923 (Blutorden)

[Kavalier]

Are you aware that there is a book listing the recipients of the first 1500 odd BO numbers? Are you suggesting creating a list of the post 1938 awards? And how will any list empower buyers to avoid fakes?

Hi Joe,

Yes, I am aware of the existence of the Patzwall book. This effort would be intended to catalog all of the Blood Order medals, starting with the well documented First Issues and working slowly and cautiously through the Second Issues.

The index would ideally include photos of each medal that the project community feels confident in listing as authentic as well as a registry of owners, provided the project's reputation is able to grow large enough to encourage new owners to present their medals for the purpose of being recorded. An example of this: "Last owner: The John Doe Collection 05.22.2020" It wouldn't mean much at the beginning when the index is a fledgling, but if it can grow to become a serious resource then we could perhaps have the most efficient method of tracking known medals around the world between owners.

Then, before making a purchase, you could visit the index website and scroll down to the number in question to see if the individual selling the medal is the last recorded owner. Obviously this still requires some tact on the part of the collector if an owner chose not to register themselves with the project.

Best,
Kav

[JoeW]

Wow, what an ambitious project. You are new to this forum I presume? The main reason I do not believe this is a viable project is the basic instability of this forum wbe-site. You have not experienced the times this site has been down. I would not trust the longevity and stability of Wehmacht Awards.com to be the repository of any important compilation.

And I would expect many collectors to be reluctant to provide personal information for public consumption. Nicknames are one thing, but personal names are another. Then there is the problem of vetting, discussions of authenticity and so on, and probably monitoring by the forum monitor.

[Military]

Wow, what an ambitious project. You are new to this forum I presume? The main reason I do not believe this is a viable project is the basic instability of this forum wbe-site. You have not experienced the times this site has been down. I would not trust the longevity and stability of Wehmacht Awards.com to be the repository of any important compilation.

And I would expect many collectors to be reluctant to provide personal information for public consumption. Nicknames are one thing, but personal names are another. Then there is the problem of vetting, discussions of authenticity and so on, and probably monitoring by the forum monitor.

Joe is right in a way that most collectors wish to remain anonymous (with a few exceptions who prefer to showcase their collections). Even if they do decide to "declare" that they own a particular BO, who will verify this and would this be a liability for scams? Who will keep track and maintain this database?

Mil

[Kavalier]

Wow, what an ambitious project. You are new to this forum I presume? The main reason I do not believe this is a viable project is the basic instability of this forum wbe-site. You have not experienced the times this site has been down. I would not trust the longevity and stability of Wehmacht Awards.com to be the repository of any important compilation.

And I would expect many collectors to be reluctant to provide personal information for public consumption. Nicknames are one thing, but personal names are another. Then there is the problem of vetting, discussions of authenticity and so on, and probably monitoring by the forum monitor.

It was my intention to establish a dedicated website for the project. We would be operating on our own terms.

Joe is right in a way that most collectors wish to remain anonymous (with a few exceptions who prefer to showcase their collections). Even if they do decide to "declare" that they own a particular BO, who will verify this and would this be a liability for scams? Who will keep track and maintain this database?

Mil

The only acceptable membership basis would be long-term BO collectors on WAF, AHF, and WRF, and historians with awards specializations. Membership would not be open to the public, a current member would have to sponsor a prospective new member, vouch for their qualifications, before they may join.

Best,
Kav

[Br. James]

Joe and Mil make many important points in this discussion. IMHO, what may be easiest to attain and most helpful at the same time would be to create a new list of the 2nd Issue Blood Order awards, based upon Patzwall's list, and assigning a name and any other relevant information about that person's qualifications.

While I have two copies of the Patzwall list in my library, neither copy includes the date of publication, but I know that the original book -- "Das Ehrenzeichen vom 9. November 1923 (Blutorden)" published by Militair-Verlag Klaus D. Patzwall -- is decades old, and while presumably all of the recipient's names are present, the information found there does not include almost all of the award numbers assigned to those names. Such a new list would be most informative to our hobby!

Br. James

[Jon Fish]

Hi Kav, thanks for your PM and starting this thread. Personally it’s not a project I need to participate in right now. Collectors spend a hell of a lot of time and effort tracking down medals, making contacts and keeping their own information. This is one of the most successful ways of building a collection. Also, researchers spend much time effort and money collating data and I for one am happy to pay for individual research when I require it.
Why should those professional people who eak out a basic living, and collectors, give all this away for free to enable someone to get it for free with a click of a button?

Knowledge, contacts and information is built up over many years in this game and it is earned. There is something unsatisfying thinking that someone could just come along with a fistful of dollars and no passion or knowledge , enter this new data area and take anything they wanted in 5 minutes, and have the same information as long term collectors who have spent years and years building up their own databases and knowledge etc.
We live in a dot com era where millennials want everything straight away and they don’t want to pay for it. I kinda like the older ways of the challenge and the constant pleasure of adding new knowledge hard earned and bit by bit.

[JoeW]

Thank you for your post Jon. Those are my thoughts exactly. I would have written them, but often collectors with such feelings are scorned as greedy or uncooperative. As with you and others, I have spent hundreds if not thousands on research material to satisfy my quest for knowledge over the past almost fifty years. Anyone can do it, if they have the time and intellectual curiosity.

[SiPo]

Well said both.

[Kavalier]

Glad to see this has picked-up some steam. I won't pretend that losing Jon Fish isn't a considerable setback, he is the most senior authority across these forums on the BO and has been more than gracious in sharing information with me via PM. However, true to form as a guilty Millennial, I do not share his opinion that the older method of collecting information over a period of several decades is better for the field. It builds a certain type of character, and camaraderie among the men nearing retirement who can afford to spend $7K on an average medal, but to ask collectors to invest a large portion of their lives into a narrow field of WWII militaria seems obtuse, and laymen who have inherited a medal are consequently obliged to post on these forums for information. Not knowing anyone on here, they have to trust our "maybe is/maybe isn't" opinions with little supporting evidence. It's highly inefficient.

If we are concerned about our statuses among the field, I should say that senior collectors are likely to retain their privileged contacts which give them an edge over the casuals. Moreover, this proposed index would serve a broader academic purpose, to keep the somewhat obscure but important information of the BO all together for posterity; if tended with great scrutiny, it could also allow for citations by scholarly works.

Greater efficiency, preservation, and learning at a cost of some exclusivity, camaraderie, and profitability.

Best,
Kav

[Ron Weinand]

Jon is absolutely correct. Not only do you give away hard earned information, but then you are opened to unwanted and unfounded critics.