Announcement

**Br. James** · 03-11-2020, 01:58 PM

Hi Paul,

Welcome among us! The SA Kepi Eagle looks original to me, though I might wish that the RZM logo and license number were easier to read.

It's good to have you here -- Cheers!

Br. James

**ivbaust** · 03-11-2020, 02:21 PM

I have a few SA kepis and all (!) eagles on mine look to the other side (they look to their left side). One example below.

The one in question looks to its right side!?

Attached Files

87936C8D-8B9F-424E-8B80-BBF30DBA4154.jpeg (103.8 KB, 95 views)

**Operation Blau** · 03-11-2020, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Hi Paul,

Welcome among us! The SA Kepi Eagle looks original to me, though I might wish that the RZM logo and license number were easier to read.

It's good to have you here -- Cheers!

Br. James

Thank you for the welcome and advice James👍

**Operation Blau** · 03-11-2020, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by ivbaust View Post

I have a few SA kepis and all (!) eagles on mine look to the other side (they look to their left side). One example below.

The one in question looks to its right side!?

Yes this one looks to the other side, I have seen the odd other example on the internet but they seem to be far fewer than the one in your image ( nice Kepi ).

Thank you for your reply, Paul

**wilhelm Saris** · 03-11-2020, 02:48 PM

Paul,

The eagle is a an official state eagle and as such to be worn by various organizations as Post, Forst and so on.
According the specification-regulations they should be marked with an RZM code. The person who said it was
SA, did not have any idea!

This eagle has nothing to do with SA or political, but occasionally were used unauthorized.

**Operation Blau** · 03-11-2020, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by wilhelm Saris View Post

Paul,

The eagle is a an official state eagle and as such to be worn by various organizations as Post, Forst and so on.
According the specification-regulations they should be marked with an RZM code. The person who said it was
SA, did not have any idea!

This eagle has nothing to do with SA or political, but occasionally were used unauthorized.

Thank you for your advice Wilhelm, much appreciated!

Regards
Paul

**wilhelm Saris** · 03-11-2020, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Operation Blau View Post

Thank you for your advice Wilhelm, much appreciated! Regards Paul

Glad I could help. I do not understand why nobody else came with this information, as it is as easy as it is!

**Jean-Claude** · 03-11-2020, 03:08 PM

Hi Paul & welcome to the forum!

Nice bird IMO but nothing to do with the SA/NSDAP even if it is RZM marked. To me this right facing birdie is an M36 Government/Beamte style eagle which exists in gold & silver & was worn by government agencies like Reichpost, Forstbeamte, Reichbahn ect and was used between 1936 and 1945. For some odd reason these (at least some of them the later cheap thin stampings are not) were RZM marked but have no NSDAP connection even though you are likely to find the odd one on a SA Kepi here & there by accident or moreso because the true SA/NSDAP M36 eagle is a much rarer bird to find (was redesigned again in 1937)

Not sure of the metal on yours (looks like zink?) but even if the maker's mark is rather faint (and diagonal which doesnt help) I know your bird is marked RZM M 1/17 for Assmann & Sohn Lüdenscheid which was a prolific manufacturer of badges & insignia because I have the same bird

I have attached pictures of the same bird as yours in aluminum as well as pictures of the NSDAP style birds used during the TR for you to compare. Note that the true NSDAP /SA M36 eagle has noticeably different proportions (particularly wing lenght) than the Beamte one you show.

Wait for other opinions to make up your mind. I know a lot of people seem to beleive the beamte type is a party eagle and lots of dealers are "pushing them" as such but IMO they are not

Best

JC

Attached Files

M36 Beamte VS NSDAP M36.jpg (146.4 KB, 83 views)

**Jean-Claude** · 03-11-2020, 03:13 PM

Oup!

Sorry for the duplicate info Paul. Wilhelm and IVHaust had already clarified the situation while I was working on my post

JC

**Operation Blau** · 03-11-2020, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Claude View Post

Hi Paul & welcome to the forum!

Nice bird IMO but nothing to do with the SA/NSDAP even if it is RZM marked. To me this right facing birdie is an M36 Government/Beamte style eagle which exists in gold & silver & was worn by government agencies like Reichpost, Forstbeamte, Reichbahn ect and was used between 1936 and 1945. For some odd reason these (at least some of them the later cheap thin stampings are not) were RZM marked but have no NSDAP connection even though you are likely to find the odd one on a SA Kepi here & there by accident or moreso because the true SA/NSDAP M36 eagle is a much rarer bird to find (was redesigned again in 1937)

Not sure of the metal on yours (looks like zink?) but even if the maker's mark is rather faint (and diagonal which doesnt help) I know your bird is marked RZM M 1/17 for Assmann & Sohn Lüdenscheid which was a prolific

manufacturer of badges & insignia because I have the same bird

I have attached pictures of the same bird as yours in aluminum as well as pictures of the NSDAP style birds used during the TR for you to compare. Note that the true NSDAP /SA M36 eagle has noticeably different proportions (particularly wing lenght) than the Beamte one you show.

Wait for other opinions to make up your mind. I know a lot of people seem to beleive the beamte type is a party eagle and lots of dealers are "pushing them" as such but IMO they are not

Best

JC

Thank you very much for your detailed response JC, I have certainly come to the right place!!

**Tony T-S** · 03-11-2020, 11:36 PM

Yes you have. Welcome and nice bird!!

**wilhelm Saris** · 03-12-2020, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by Jean-Claude View Post

For some odd reason these (at least some of them the later cheap thin stampings are not) were RZM marked but have no NSDAP connection. Best JC

I said before and it is not odd, it was just ordered eagles like this had to be RZM marked. There are many publications about these state eagles. This new national eagle emblem was officially phrased as: “Mützenhoheitszeichen für Behörden des Reiches, der Länder, Gemeinden, Reichsbahn und Reichspost”. Knowing about this is just a question of consulting official regulations and cataloques from manufacturers.

**wilhelm Saris** · 03-12-2020, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by wilhelm saris View Post

i said before and it is not odd, it was just ordered eagles like this had to be rzm marked. There are many publications about these state eagles. This new national eagle emblem was officially phrased as: “mützenhoheitszeichen für behörden des reiches, der länder, gemeinden, reichsbahn und reichspost”. Knowing about this is just a question of consulting official regulations and cataloques from manufacturers.

[ATTACH]4594902[/ATTACH]

I can show much more of such publications. So, it is not odd. Here a part from an unfinished book of mine:

The 1935-decree was renewed by a new decree about the form for the national eagle emblem from March 7, 1936 : “die Gestaltung des Hoheitszeichens des Reichs”. Most aspects from the NSDAP eagle were included: a swastika on a tip, surrounded by an oak leaf wreath. Upon this wreath an eagle was situated with six segmented wings (this remained as such until the end of the war). The head for the eagle was heraldic designed to the right (the viewer sees an eagle looking to the left, so the right wing). A sample for the design was included with the decree. The actual form was slightly different as the one that was further developed for the state-organizations. By this decree the earlier used NSDAP eagle symbol – which in later years disappeared - officially was changed into a new eagle symbol for the German state, the Reich. The wearing for the headgear was agreed by the Minister of the Reich of Interior with Hitler’s Deputy and came into being in the later part of the year (die Neuregelung ist bis zum 31. Dezember 1936 durchzuführen). This new national eagle emblem was officially phrased as: “Mützenhoheitszeichen für Behörden des Reiches, der Länder, Gemeinden, Reichsbahn und Reichspost”. Largely translated as: National (eagle) emblem for headgear for Reich-authorities and states, for municipality, German railroad and postal organizations. Note that customs and forestry were Reich-authorities, as were also the Reichsbank. This eagle pattern was worn by officials, employees and workers from “Staatliche Verwaltungen”.

Apparently much confusion was caused by the Heraldic description, as published in the Reich Publication of Laws (Reichsgesetzblatt) from March 1936. For this reason Adolf Hitler “cut the Gordian knot”. With an order from May 31, 1937 he finally decided and made a determination concerning the eagle’s form (the stand for the head): since then there was a difference between the official political eagle (Partei – as seen from the viewer the stand for the head looks to its left wing, so to the right) and the Reich/state eagle (Staat – as seen from the viewer the stand for the head looks to its right wing, so to the left). The new state eagle was a fact and soon would be worn all over in 1937! This remained through the years until the end of World War II in 1945. Note there were exceptions, but this had then not to do with a Reich or state organization.

Due to the fact the eagle was protected by law (Heimtückegesetz), manufacturing was only allowed by those concerns that had a permission from the RZM. As mentioned before for this reason the RZM-sign, an M1-code and a number should officially be positioned at the reverse of the eagle. As with the old form of eagle also this type of eagle occasionally does not have any marking at all! Manufacturers so now and then offended to RZM-rules. This resulted their permission could be withdrawn!

**Br. James** · 03-12-2020, 11:43 AM

Many thanks for providing your excellent chart of the various generations of the NSDAP Eagle. I was obviously remembering the "M-36" version of this design. Perhaps I'm not quite as ignorant as I seem...??

Cheers, my friend,

Br. James

Announcement

Advice on S.A badge

Advice on S.A badge

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread