Triangle Patch Discussion

[RonR]

Mr Saris has started a discussion of this "triangle patch", and with his permission, I would like to solicit input from or members.

"Every so now and then the shown patch pops up at dealer’s websites and forums and such.

But what is it?

For many years it was said to be for customs females.

On the other hand serious dealers claimed it in the last years to be private forestry!


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[RonR]

Every so now and then the shown patch pops up at dealer’s websites and forums and such.

But what is it?

For many years it was said to be for customs females.

On the other hand serious dealers claimed it in the last years to be private forestry!

It is sewn onto all kinds of headgear, most often being the so-called M43 type of headdress.


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[RonR]

The major problem however is:

in NO Third Reich regulation or announcement for customs, nor forestry this patch ever was being mentioned

(some of the best customs and forestry experts were contacted about this matter). So, where does this “knowledge” come from?

Making just rough calculations?

One cannot be sure about what this patch really is/was until some person brings evidence by means of an actual publication or regulation or whatever.

So, true evidence it should be.

The patch has no indications whatsoever saying it is forestry.

This organization did not use the saw-tooth edge.

The leaves are said to be oakleaves, but they are not.

There are indications the patch to be customs, as with many insignia
the saw-tooth edge was a fact (all types of collar-patches, the actual and true customs Edelweiss, and for example the speciality patch for customs pilots.

Even in most designs the saw-tooth is included.

See some added samples of designs).

The leaves are the Acanthus, a leaf typical for customs as well.

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[RonR]

Design for the customs pilots and the actual patch...


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[RonR]

Design for the Edelweiss.

Look at the saw-tooth and Acanthus-leaves.

And the actual manufactured Edelweiss as proof....


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[RonR]

And the Edelweiss design, devoid of the customs characteristics: saw-tooth and Acanthus...


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[RonR]

As Mr Saris has stated:


For many years I consider myself a person having a slight knowledge of German uniforms and insignia and above all its development.

I cannot understand the nonsense that the patch is forestry.

Those claiming this have no idea about the “how and what” of these matters!

I have had ideas what the patch could be (not forestry in no way) and for many years it is my opinion the patch was planned one day for the customs-organization.

My explanation is that in 1942 plans apparently existed to replace the customs cuff-title.

A special insignia was noted (Schaffung eines besonderen bzeichens), however not saying how it did look.

Knowing procedures the patch even may have been manufactured, as manufacturers were eager to “invent” insignia in hope their product
was chosen to be the final form (this I learned from correspondence about the customs Edelweiss and special pilots patch).

Finally it was or must have been denied to be introduced (die Schaffung fallen gelassen worden).

The war will have been a spoil-part (die Beibehaltung des Ärmelstreifens nur für die Dauer des Krieges bis auf weiteres gestattet wurde).

Could it be the shown patch was planned to replace the cuff-title and so to be worn by males, as well as females?

This is just a wild, wild guess. Or could it indeed have been a patch to be worn with headgear like the so-called M43?

Who knows. As mentioned before only true and stated evidence can give us a solution!!

It will keep, as they say!

The matter is open for discussion, but remind we are not served with “I have heard” or “I have seen”.

There must be produced some actual foundation by means of a publication or documentation.

The subject has been discussed many times before at various forums.

Nobody ever came with a stated document and/or clue!

I know it is a quite difficult question, but who knows?

Please help us with facts!

[RonR]

Thanks, as always, for your efforts, Wim.

The forestry theory has always been absurd; from the design it is indeed clear that the patch - whatever its exact purpose was - is Zoll-related.

I would like to throw another theory in the ring, knowing full well that it, too, is just wild speculation.

The triangular shape is rather unusual for Third Reich-era uniform insignia, but one other triangular state service patch comes to mind: The collar patches worn on the service dress and greatcoat of female prison personnel (see below).

This got me thinking: Given the similiar shape and the fact that this patch has a sawtooth edge like the Zoll collar patches, could this be a (projected/unissued) collar patch for female customs auxiliaries?


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[RonR]

I know about this patch as shown in the regulation: Dienstbekleidungsvorschrift der Reichsjustizverwaltung
from June 3, 1942.

These triangles do have a cord edge, but no saw-tooth edge. Just a cord.

Nor do they have leaves of any kind, but just rosettes and chevrons (description pp. 22 and 23).

By the way: the green for the collar-patches for justice is quite another color as the typical green for customs, if I remember well.

Furthermore the type of patch-material woven is not meant to be for collar-patches at all, but typical for the arm or headgear!

Only occasionally collar patches were made according to the so-called "Bandstuhlverfahren".

[RonR]

I added some designs for the customs pilots patch and Edelweiss to post 1, which might be of great interest for those with real interest in the development of insignia!

Beware if in a few years such patches pop up!

The Edelweiss designs are not ever shown before.

They are not even shown at the Zollgrenzschutz-website!

I like to give now and then nice information for the real interested.

Due to my files I am able to so.

Some of my closest friends do own the same information. I think it is of use also to mention my articles about customs pilots and the Edelweiss as being published in the US-magazine "Military Advisor".

Some were published many, many years ago (over 25 years ago with some occasions).

Many took over my information, occasionally as if it was theirs (not even asking permission).

1991: Military Advisor: Pilots of the Customs Border Security, 1941-1945;
1992: Militaria (Germany): Zollflieger des Zollgrenzschutzes, 1941-1945;
1992: Miltaria (Germany): Das Zollgrenzschutz-Edelweissabzeichen;
1996: Military Advisor: Customs Border Security Edelweiss.

Of great interest might be, due to information about the development:

1997: Military Advisor: Customs Car Flags (1939-1945)
1998: Militaria (Germany): Zollflaggen an Kraftwagen (1939-1945).

I wrote also other articles about customs, as for example the aiguillette, brocade and buckle and arm patches for foreigners, serving within customs.

Customs always has been one of my favorite organizations.

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[RonR]

You input is is welcome and appreciated!


Best regards,

[wilhelm Saris]

You input is is welcome and appreciated!
Best regards,

Thanks Ron for doing me this favor. The text I could have done, but I cannot post photos at WAF. And thisd "essay" has no value without the photos.
I started the discussion at the War Relics Forum (as a Lifetime member) and I thought it would be nice to see it here also.

Maybe one day we can put the last part of the puzzle!

[polux]

Hello Ron,

Beautiful presentation and good explanations. For me, this unknown badge in all the characteristics of a devolved badge in the service of customs. The existence of another type of badge, with an unequivocal inscription, make me to believe that the unknown badge can be only in connection with the service of customs. Cordial greetings.

Polux

[wilhelm Saris]

Hello Ron, Beautiful presentation and good explanations. For me, this unknown badge in all the characteristics of a devolved badge in the service of customs. The existence of another type of badge, with an unequivocal inscription, make me to believe that the unknown badge can be only in connection with the service of customs. Cordial greetings. Polux

Hello Polux,

thanks. I did supply the material to Ron to show it here. For his kind cooperation he is thanked.

I started a thread about this "essay" at the War Relics Forum on October the 19th.
while once again this triangle patch was offered, positioned at headgear, as private forestry (Weitze)
and also the German website about the Zollgrenzschutz proudly mentioned there finally was a solution
about the triangle (forestry). The patch in no way is an equal to the true private forestry design emblem.

I do know the triangle you show. With this one I have also problems. It is customs, that is for sure, but
from what period?
I checked my material and in official correspondence the abbreviation Zgrsch was used since about fall 1942.

Maybe this triangle was planned, as there were many plans and designs that were rejected. Maybe one day
we will find a solution als for this one!