Bergführer

[rove]

hello
is this really an original?
best wishes and always: thank you!

[Stan]

Well, it's not a Bergfürer its trying to be a Gendarmerie Alpinist but is a Fake in any case. Sorry.

Stan

[Mike TM]

This badge in use

[JoeW]

This badge in use

Nice photograph. Did you buy the photo from Fisher in GB? Were those the badges sold with it or did you add them? One badge sold with the photo was a repro like the one in Rove's photo.

Does anyone have a photo of an Austrian Gendarmerie tunic with loops to accept the original Austrian badge? I have never seen a photo of a tunic with such loops.

[Mike TM]

Hello, I didn't buy the photo.

regards
Mike

Nice photograph. Did you buy the photo from Fisher in GB? Were those the badges sold with it or did you add them? One badge sold with the photo was a repro like the one in Rove's photo.

Does anyone have a photo of an Austrian Gendarmerie tunic with loops to accept the original Austrian badge? I have never seen a photo of a tunic with such loops.

[Stan]

Joe,

One of the photos belongs to me and the other belongs to a collector in Russia.

Stan

[JoeW]

Thanks Stan. I thought I recognized it belonging to someone on the forum.

[Gary Symonds]

Well, it's not a Bergfürer its trying to be a Gendarmerie Alpinist but is a Fake in any case. Sorry.

Stan

Stan, we have been there before.

Please provide the factual details to support your opinion this badge is a fake.

Please don't refer me to the WAF data base, for originals to observe, I've done that, and I am not satisfied this is the last word on the topic.

Why is this badge not an original?

[Stan]

Gary,

You are quite right that I do not have any evidence that these badges are fakes but common sense tells me that they are.

It is generally accepted in collecting circles that original badges were made by Souval and supplied to Klein who was responsible for the design and sold them to the polizei

Whilst there are known to be different styles of Polizei eagles on the obverse, everything else is the same, including makers marks.

The badge shown at the start of this thread is not only completely different in the way that it is made but has a different makers mark from the norm which is an added problem.

Of course, not all badges were mm'd because Souval took over the supply of them to the Polizei after Klein's death around 1942

However, the one shown does have a makers mark and it is completely different to the accepted version.

I realise that this is not conclusive evidence but it is enough for me to believe that it is a copy.

Stan

[JoeW]

Gary,

I think Stan's explanation can be elaborated upon with these two images from a converted badge sold by Hermann Historica a few years back. On the first image, notice the grooved front of the mountain pick. All original Austrian or Austrian/Nazified Apinist badges feature this pick head. The pick head of the badge at the beginning of this thead has no such groove.



The second image shows the reverse of a converted Austrian Alpinist badge. The original Austrian badges featured the crest of Austria on a shield attached at top and bottom to the end of a mountain pick shaft. The original shield is suspended by each end an is not attached to either side of the wreath. The police emblem was attached to that shield.



Whatever emblem is behind the police emblem on the badge at the beginning of this thread is unknown, but was obviously cast together with the wreath unlike all original Austrian badges.

Finally, the "money" clip used as the spring attachment for the badge would be unworkable with the required two mounting loops on the pockets of the Gendarmerie tunics. Original Austrian badges had the double spring clip to insert down through the top loop and then up through the bottom. In many instances, the Nazified badges were converted to pin pack.

If you consider these to be variations, please explain the significant design and construction differences given prodution ceased in 1938.

Stan, I disagree with your comments about the continued production of the Alpinist badges by Souval after Klein's death in 1942. I don't believe Steiner offered any evidence for this conclusion in his 2000 article in Militaria. I think the sources contradict it emphatically. For one thing, the order creating the new Bergführer badge in February 1941 recognized that the old badges awarded to officers and Wachtmeisters of the Gendarmerie in Austria could be continued to be worn, but not with the new badge. There is no mention of the award of these Austrian designed badges with Nazi insignia to any newly qualified Alpinists after the Anschluss. There were no awards of any mountain qualification until the creation of the new badge in 1941, along with the creation of a German police school for mountain training. Steiner has some fascinating information in his article, but I find some of it concerning the transitional period to be supposition.

Of course the great mystery remains. What was in the unpublished order of July 26, 1938 that dealt with the Alpinist badges that had been awarded to Austrian mountain police.

[stukapilot]

Here you can also see some badges.
http://www.frontmedal.com/catalog/ga...ahta-1967.html

[JoeW]

Very nice. Any English translation of your Russian web site. The Polizei Bergfuhrer badge looks familiar. Did you get it at the SOS a few years ago?

[Stan]

I agree, very nice collection of Polizei badges.

The Bergwacht Hilfspolizei badge is still a bit of a mystery IMO.

Stan

[JoeW]

Here you can also see some badges.
http://www.frontmedal.com/catalog/ga...ahta-1967.html

Of course you forgot the Schi-Führer Abzeichen.

[Stan]

Very nice. Any English translation of your Russian web site. The Polizei Bergfuhrer badge looks familiar. Did you get it at the SOS a few years ago?

No, I think that they came from FS.

Stan