What happened to the Gestapo disc of Kaltenbrunner

[Don Bible]

A few months ago, a fellow collector made me aware of a released CIA article relating to the story of the capture of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, in a mountain cabin high in the mountains over Alt Aussee, Austria, on May 12, 1945.

He was captured by Col. Robert E. Matteson, a CIC officer with the 80th Div. 3rd. Army. In his description of the capture in the mountain cabin, Col. Matteson stated:

"In the ash pit at the base of the chimney was a picture of Kaltenbrunner with his wife and children, a copy of the last radio message to Fegelein for Himmler and Hitler, his identification card as Chief of the SIPO and SD, and his metal identification discs as number two man (Himmler was number one) of the Gestapo and the Kriminalpolizei."

Since I learned about these pieces, I made an effort to locate the family of Mr.Matteson, who was certainly familiar with the part Matteson played in the Kaltenbrunner capture. They did not however, know the final disposition he had made of the Kaltenbrunner pieces.

One of the children, many years later had made a trip with Mr.Matteson back to the mountain cabin where he captured Ernst Kaltenbrunner and others, many years before.

In later years Col. Matteson gave a few presentations, telling of the capture of Kaltenbrunner. In one of those presentations, he is pictured holding the chained State Kripo disc of Kaltenbrunner.

He mentioned that the Gestapo disc was lost on a trip he made to Mt. Everest. A friend had asked him to bring the disc along for him to see. While they were eating at a restaurant, he showed the disc to the friend. He then laid it down beside his dinner plate. When they went up to pay the bill, he realized that he had left the disc on the table. When he went back to retrieve it...it was gone.

It was never located, although Mr. Matteson enlisted the help of the CIA to help find it. He never mentioned in any of his writings that I could locate, what he did with the identification card.

Hopefully these very important pieces of WWII history will be located or at least good photographs of them will be made available. I have many inquiries out to possible institutions who may have received one or both of the two remaining pieces of Kaltenbrunner police identification.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

very interesting story Don, great work

See You

Vince

[Br. James]

What a fine contribution to the stream of ever-revealing history of WWII and it's host of colorful characters you have provided! Thank you, Don, for sharing this vignette with us; I for one am most grateful to read it.

Warmest regards,

Br. James

[Dave C.]

Don, a fascinating read you have provided! Although I must say a rather odd disappearance of the disc form the restaurant, what’s the chance that anyone at the restaurant even knew what the disc was or the significance. Maybe someone knowing him or the disc significance/value pocketed it?? Hopefully it didn’t land at the local dump. Was it recorded along the way of Matteson’s possession and or is the Kaltenbrunner actual issued disc number even known?

Thanks,

Dave<O</O

[Don Bible]

Thank you French Volunteer, Bro. James and Dave, for the comments and questions concerning the Kaltenbrunner Gestapo disc.

In some of his writing, Matteson mentioned the number of both Kaltenbrunner discs being stamped number 2. Of course the Identification card (Dienstausweis), would have carried the same number.

Mr. Matteson did not mention the country in which the disc was lost in anything I have read by him yet. I am still finding new material in the vast collection, that he left in archives mostly in the Minnesota Historical Society. His home was in St. Paul. He died of complications from Parkinson's disease at the age of 79, in January, 1994.

He was a world-wide traveler and conservationist. He and a grandson once took a canoe trip the entire length of the Mississippi River.

I get the impression from the records he left behind and from speaking with his family, that his lifetime accomplishments were so numerous...that they never attached any particular importance to his capture of Kaltenbrrunner.

[Dave C.]

So I was curious and did a little internet search which yielded an interview with Robert E. Matteson which has some details on his pursuit and capture of Kaltenbrunner. Link below for those interested. Oh yes, it was stated they found 'Gestapo Badge No. 2 and Kripo Badge No.2' and also his ID card. So there was two discs?

http://collections.mnhs.org/cms/web5...1&irn=10279698

[Don Bible]

Yes, Kaltenbrunner had both a Gestapo warrant disc with the number 2 and a State Kripo disc with the number 2. He still had the State Kripo disc several years after the Gestapo disc was lost. In an interview, he is shown holding the State Kripo disc as he was speaking. That disc is probably in a museum collection, possibly with the Kaltenbrunner police identification card, but so far I have not been able to locate it.

I have corresponded and spoken by telephone with one of Matteson's children, who told me that the surviving disc was likely in the collection of the Minnesota Historical Society, however a search by both library staff and paid private researchers, have been unable to locate it..or even a photograph of it.

All the children of Mr. Matteson have stated to their sibling helping with the search...that they have no knowledge of the disc or ID card.

I have an inquiry in to the CIA archives seeking information, but so far no reply.

Dave, the head of the archive at the Minnesota Historical Society old me that the Matteson interview with Kirby that you posted, was done by a private contractor, who was not employed by the Minnesota Historical Society.

[chen]

Mr. Bible,
That two no.2 discs, if existed and found, will be the ultimate discs!

[SiPo]

I have an inquiry in to the CIA archives seeking information, but so far no reply.

Hope you have better luck than I did Don.

Whilst conducting a little research into Dienstausweis back in 2010/11, I became aware of the Kaltenbrunner capture story and sent no less than 3 requests to the CIA archives for information of the whereabouts of the discs and ID card or for photographs.

To this day I have never received a reply.

[Don Bible]

Graham, I am still hoping for a reply. Several years ago, I had occasion to contact the CIA archives and received a fairly prompt and courteous reply. I am hoping that "history will repeat itself"...but that well may have to do with the subject. Time will tell, I suppose.

I hope your are having success in your latest endeavor with pairing up some good photographs with your card and its partner.

[SMV]

Don, what a great story! I hope you are able to locate at least one of the discs and or the Dienstausweis. Good luck with your hunt.

Marcus

[Don Bible]

Thank you Marcus. After almost 76 years after the capture of the two Kaltenbrunner discs and the ID card, the trail has become very cold...but I am still trying.

There are two known published accounts of the capture. The first one was in May, 1991, in a long interview with Mr. Matteson conducted over a two day period by Alec Kirby, a paid private contractor, hired by the Minnesota Historical Society. That is the one that can be accessed here from the link posted by Dave.

The second account was one published by the CIA in an "approved for release" article on September 22, 1993. That account was one personally written by Mr. Matteson, primarily relating the story of the capture of Kaltenbrunner.

The two articles give basically the same details of the capture and the finding of the Gestapo and Kripo warrant discs...both imprinted with the number "2"...along with the Police Identification card for both agencies.

In earlier years, apparently Mr. Matteson (he was alternately called "Colonel." and "Captain"), gave a few vocal interviews describing the capture. In one of those, in 1982, he is pictured holding the Kaltenbrunner State Kripo disc in his hand. In that interview, he stated that he had lost the Kaltenbrunner Gestapo disc in an eating place, in 1978 or 1979, while on a trip to Mt. Everest. He did not identify the country, in which the disc was lost.

Since his family has no other knowledge of the final disposition of the Kripo disc and the ID card...and did not know when, or how, the Gestapo disc was lost...or any knowledge of where photographs of the three pieces might exist...it is a search that will require some sort of a "miracle" to be successful.

[Dave C.]

"In the ash pit at the base of the chimney was a picture of Kaltenbrunner with his wife and children, a copy of the last radio message to Fegelein for Himmler and Hitler, his identification card as Chief of the SIPO and SD, and his metal identification discs as number two man (Himmler was number one) of the Gestapo and the Kriminalpolizei."

Curiosity question, so Himmler was issued the numero uno Gestapo and Kripo discs? Anything further known about that?

[Don Bible]

Not to my knowledge. I would guess that by the time of his death, Himmler had already disposed of all incriminating items that he would have ordinarily carried. Like so many lower ranking Gestapo members...he probably burned the ID card and buried the discs...or threw them into a large body of water...as the net was closing in on him.

Original Gestapo warrant discs continue to be unearthed by metal detector hunters. A few days ago, a collector in the Czech Republic sent me an airline express packet containing four original Gestapo discs. One was a nice example that had never been buried...and three were damaged or discolored from seven decades in the ground...the numbers were readable on two, and three of the four numbers were readable on the other one.

On three of the four discs (including the undamaged original), the numbers indicated that they were probably issued in the "Protektorate", as they were close in number to discs I observed on photographs of captured Gestapo ID cards, from Czech Archives on a November 2000 visit to Prague.

In the attached photographs, is the old Gestapo headquarters building in Prague, and the lady was interrogated in this building as a protesting student in 1938. She told me through an interpreter that she was only photographed at the student assembly...and later arrested from being identified in the photograph.

[mjmelland]

A few months ago, a fellow collector made me aware of a released CIA article relating to the story of the capture of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, in a mountain cabin high in the mountains over Alt Aussee, Austria, on May 12, 1945. He was captured by Col. Robert E. Matteson, a CIC officer with the 80th Div. 3rd. Army.

Hi Don, I'm activating this old thread because I knew Bob Matteson pretty well. I held that #2 KriPo disc in my hands several times and viewed Kaltenbrunner's papers and ID. Mr Matteson told me that Ernst Kaltenbrunner was very intelligent, an imposing man, but was as cold as ice. I will reach out to you via other means if I can be of any help to you..

Mike