Gestapo leather box lid & plate

[aramsay]

Recently picked up what appears to be a thick leather box-lid, with a Gestapo plate / badge rivetted to the top.

Over all diameter is about 19cm. Inside, looks like a small pouch for holding something likea small pair of scissors.

The badge is 48mm square. The construction and aging of the lid is such that the badge has been there a long time, and almost certainly since the lid was made.

The badge, and indeed outer surface of lid, had been overpainted black, but the badge has recently been cleaned / polished up.

Any idea what the lid may be from, and what the badge is ?

[mametz]

Sorry to say its an old leather box lid with a fantasy badge on it
Mametz

[Waffe]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=gestapo+tag

[aramsay]

So, there were no square badges issued then ?

But again, the back of the rivets are UNDER the inside construction of the box, and sewn-in.

To me, it looks a 60 year old piece, including the badge.....

[Waffe]

All square badges are fake (never existed), yes.

Regards,
Kent

[aramsay]

From looking at photos on the web of other such square plates, all the numbers on the bottom (under a rivet on mine) would appear to be M/10/86.

As far as I can work out, the RZM M10 series is for musical instruments....

Why couldn't the lid be from something like a bugle-case / carton, and I am thinking that the inside pouch would be for the mouthpiece.

Perhaps because no-one has ever seen one before in the context of a intrument-box, it has been deemed fantasy, although I could understand one being used as basis for a "Zentral Inspektion" plate fake.

Again, I state that from the construction, smell, wear to the overall piece, I am sure it is war-time age. The materiel bearing on the underside of the rivet is similarly worn/aged.

From the above, I have provided some evidence that there is a chance this plate is real. If other's deem it fake or fantasy, I would appreciate evidence to that effect ?

[crowback]

None that I have seen in the last 40 years.

So, there were no square badges issued then ?

But again, the back of the rivets are UNDER the inside construction of the box, and sewn-in.

To me, it looks a 60 year old piece, including the badge.....

[SiPo]

Sorry, but this whole thing is nasty old junk. Don't know how much you were "taken" on it but no matter how much you try to justify it, it will remain junk.

If I were you I would put more energy into getting your money back than trying to justify this.

[aramsay]

Sorry, but this whole thing is nasty old junk. Don't know how much you were "taken" on it but no matter how much you try to justify it, it will remain junk.

If I were you I would put more energy into getting your money back than trying to justify this.

OK, OK....no need to get sniffy about it.

It's not my field, which is why I came here.

The lot as a whole is very convincing, hence why I bought it.

Live and learn then.....

[Silesien]

You can buy all those same exact brass tags you want from Reddick Militaria of Pottsboro, Texas, shown in color in their catalog as item #0107-153-002 @ $10.80 each.

[Don Bible]

I can sympathize with aramsay's quest for more knowledge about this box lid with the rectangular piece attached.

First of all, I will say that I have seen many of these pieces over the years, in varying degrees of quality and on different metals from copper to brass to pot metal. Almost all of them have the name of a KZ on them i.e. Buchenwald, Auschwitz, etc., and a number, usually the same number on all with the same name.

For a long time I ignored them as pure fantasy pieces until sometime before 2001 when my book Third Reich Warrant Discs 1934-1945 was published by SCHIFFER PUBLISHING LTD. On pages 40-41 of that book, four of these pieces are pictured. Three are obvious fakes.

The one on the upper left of the four is made from copper. It carries the number 9128 and Auschwitz in the two rectangular boxes.

It is the story behind this piece that has always kept me from declaring it a "fake." The piece was offered to me for well less than $100 by a California veteran who told me that he took it from a private house in Heidelberg, that had been "requisitioned" as quarters for he and other members of his company, in the summer of 1945. He made an unqualified statement that he found the piece himself and had kept it in his possession for 55 years at that time.

Without his knowledge I did research on his outfit and found that he was a member as he said at the time he said.

I also learned that he had attended several reunions of the outfit he was in. In summary, I had no reason to doubt him then, and no reason to doubt him now. I have no idea what the original pieces were or what they were used for...but I cannot discount it as a purely post war fantasy piece...although I agree that most I have seen obviously are.

[Don Bible]

It have had requests to post the rectangular marker described above. Here it is.

[SiPo]

A peek behind the one on the lid will reveal all I'm sure.

Not trying to be controversial but it will be a very, very long time before I will be anywhere near convinced these badges or the piece posted are the genuine article.

[Dave C.]

Don, is that a M/10/36 or 86 at the bottom? Is this would have fell under the RZM? Just curious about this marking and if anything has been learned about it. supporting authenticity. Thanks.

[Don Bible]

Dave, the number is M/10/86. In all the years I have had the piece I have never been able to get any archival or other information on it, and I have no idea what it would have been used for, if it is authentic.

By the same token, I have never been able to discount the story of an old veteran who stated unequivocally that he found the piece in a house in Heidelberg, that had been requisitioned for several men from his company as temporary quarters in the Summer of 1945.

In the year 2000, he told me he had had the piece in his possession for 55 years. He was not trying to sell it. He just asked me if I could tell him what it was. I made him an offer on it which was quite limited as neither of us knew what it was. He accepted my offer.

In the Summer of 1945, I very much doubt that a fake of this quality would have been available...as struggling to survive was the name of the game for German civilians and former military during that period.

I may die never knowing what it is, but I think I will die believing the old soldier's story. He had no reason to lie to me over the token amount that I paid him for it....and I don't believe he did.