oorlogsspullen

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

generalgouvernement zoll fahndungs dienst dienstmarke

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    generalgouvernement zoll fahndungs dienst dienstmarke

    This Dienstmarke (warrant disc) for the Customs Investigation Service of the General Government was dug last summer in the area of the Polish town of Wschowa (Fraustadt). It is number 7.

    German archival records confirm the existence of this type disc, however is the first example of it that I have seen.

    Have other collectors encountered it before?
    Attached Files
    Don Bible

    #2
    Don, what archival records confirm the existence of this type of disc? Are you saying that the source documents specifically illustrate this type of disc?

    Comment


      #3
      Joe, this is from the following information recently sent to me by Joachim:


      In 1940 existed 34 different "Oberfinanzdirektionen" in the 3. Reich.

      The "Generalgouvernement" was a special area, headquarters in Krakau.

      The chief, the "Finanzpräsident", was Hermann Senkowsky.

      I found that the customs investigations in Krahau had only 18 officers. The disc has the low number 7, that fits to only 18 officers.
      Don Bible

      Comment


        #4
        Joachim's info from whatever source he has found certainly establishes the organization of the Gen. Gouv. Zoll, but does it establish the use of discs or even the existence of them? It's not like the Prussian directive creating the 1934 discs, is it? I would say it's circumstantial at best.

        Comment


          #5
          Joe, I visited the German Customs Museum in Hamburg with Joachim, several years ago. The curator allowed me to handle and examine in hand, all the Third Reich era customs discs in their collection, which consisted of more than a dozen examples, some intact and some de-Nazified. There were some beautiful examples.

          I have personally owned five or six examples from different Customs Districts, and still have three....YET I HAVE NEVER SEEN A DIRECTIVE CREATING THESE EITHER......NOR HAVE I EVER SEEN SPECIFICATIONS FOR THEM......YET THEY ARE ALL ALIKE EXCEPT FOR THE NAMES OF THE DISTRICT. I don't think anyone doubts them.

          Joachim has seen much better pictures of this disc that I was able to post here, and has expressed full confidence that it is original.

          You have seen those same pictures a few weeks ago...and in your words, said "It looks like a winner from here."

          I have the disc in my hands now, and am convinced it is original.

          Circumstantial at best or not...that well may be all that we will ever have to go on. To the best of my knowledge, it has taken 70 years to see this example.
          Don Bible

          Comment


            #6
            Yes I did say it looks like winner. So we accept it based on its similarity to others. I was remarking about your statement that Achim had found evidence confirming its existence. I am sure if the Zoll administration wanted to, they could find the documentation. If we can find authorization for all the Prussian Pre-Nazi discs and the post-1934 discs, one should be able to find the same for the Zoll.

            Comment


              #7
              Joe, when I sent the pictures to you and Joachim, I had never had the disc in hand. It has now been received by me and I have had a chance to examine it at length.

              The seller in eastern Europe, sent the disc to me to examine with no advance payment. He was in the party that dug the disc last summer.

              As you know Joachim keeps a running list of all known Third Reich era warrant discs, and now has 27 Zoll Fahndungs Dienst discs listed. On 17 of those he has either weights or measurements , or both.

              Now that I have the disc in hand, I have weighed and measured it, and find that it conforms to the known weights and measurements of those listed, which is a very strong indication that it is minted from the same metallic composition. Several of those are in the German Customs Museum in Hamburg. It is without doubt, a die-struck piece.

              As you know, the reverse side of this disc has the exact same striking as all the other known discs, however the obverse side has a few different features that were obviously not meant to match the other discs. I believe this to be an attempt to allow this disc to have its own individuality for the Generalgouvernment.

              Although similar, the eagle has a different beak much more downturned, and the wreath has small extensions protruding all the way around appearing to possibly be acorns as you suggested, when you saw the pictures.

              When I was in the German Customs Museum in 2001, they had very little archival information, but hopefully now that may have changed.

              It may be possible for Joachim, or you, to do some follow-up research in material that may have become available since that time. Through his high-ranking position with the Hamburg State Criminal Police, Joachim has strong ties and contacts with the Customs people there.

              In caring for my wife who had a stroke almost three years ago, my time to do research is very limited.

              In any case both Joachim and I are fully convinced that this is an example of the previously unseen Zoll disc for the Generalgouvernment.
              Don Bible

              Comment


                #8
                Here is my one and only Generalgouvernement disc.

                This one certainly is an enigma. It has been struck, over struck, hammered and flattened in parts. Test/practice planchette or one that went wrong?

                As with Don's this is the only one of this type known to be in existence.

                No attempt by me as yet to research it.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  Reverse angle 1
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Reverse angle 2
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Graham, am I glad to see this !! Definitely SAME eagle and wreath as mine!!
                      Don Bible

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Graham, with the mutilation of your disc it will be difficult to get accurate measurements, but can you give us the approximate figures. Mine is roughly 39 grams, and measures approximately 45 mm in width and a bit less than 4mm in thickness.

                        I notice your example is for the tax investigation service.

                        From working as a civilian in Germany almost 50 years ago, I remember those folks. They were feared and respected by most everyone as they had rigid enforcement rules.

                        In the case of suspected tax evasion and property was levied against, they placed a seal on everything similar to the seals used on a railroad freight car. It was called a "cuckoo." No one dared touch the cuckoo!!!
                        Don Bible

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Don,

                          Mine is similar at 46mm wide and weighs in at 38.5g. Thickness differs due to being squashed a little at one end and measures between just over 4mm and just under 4mm.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Graham, thanks for the weights and measurements. I think it is pretty obvious that the two discs started out being basically the same except for different departments of the Finanzamt of the Generalgouvernement.

                            I think it is also reasonable to deduct that other than for the obvious slight changes to the eagle and wreath, that the Dienstmarke of the Zoll Fahndungs Dienst, in the Generalgouvernrment was almost identical to those of the other 34 Oberfinanzdirektionen, that Joachim has told us about, and for which he has recorded 27 examples.
                            Don Bible

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Graham, can you please tell us how you obtained such an amazing object?

                              Comment

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There is currently 0 user online. 0 members and 0 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                              Working...
                              X