SchuPo in Heer service uniform

[NickG]

I had already posted this strange combination in the Heer uniform section but thought to get more Polizei Experten involved...reposting here...instead of just a link which I tried earlier...

Bill already commented in the other section:

I cannot comment on the tunic shown as it is green piped which would be Schutzpolizei. All MG wore orange gendarmerie insignia and piping. Indeed some SchuPo were militarized, particularly into the SS field division. I have no personal knowledge about SchuPo to army transitions. The tunic shown seems to have an improper army breast eagle instead of sleeve eagle, perhaps an improper rebadging after the fact. I seem to be able to see the outline of where a police sleeve eagle was once sewn.

Are the boards green and BLACK as in SD?

Bill Unland

This uniform is offered by Espenlaub...
Dealers description:

"Polizei Hauptmann in the Wehrmacht tunic and matched trousers":

Polizei Hauptmann in the Wehrmacht -Heeres unit, absolutely stunning condition and quality tunic and matched trousers,
the tunic appears never been with the sleeve police eagle, instead of this it has a breast Heeres eagle, as normal for the police unit in the army unit. Hard to find the set like this!

[NickG]

Shoulderboard detail (definitely SchuPo)

Photo credit: Espenlaub, where this nice uniform + matching pants can be purchased!

[NickG]

Now the reason why I am intrigued by it is because of have something similar in my collection...
My example is partially re-restored...
Mine came with SchuPo shoulderboards but was incorrectly restored to Heer GJ (because of the waffenfarbe resembling mountain troops)...
It is clearly stampled "PO" (polizei) so I fixed it and restored it back to SchuPo but it still had clear traces of a Heer breast eagle...
After seeing the Espenlaub offer I decided to put the Wehrmacht-Heer breast eagle back on it...in addition to the standard SchuPo sleeve eagle!

but was wondering about this combination being truly accurate?...The tunic btw is dated 1945 but that has been inked out...but still visible...
(the breast eagle can easily be removed still)

[NickG]

Details! You will notice that the bottom pockets are pleated...armed forces style...not Polizei...
It is a strange duck but the "PO" stamp and shiny shoulderboards which came with it tell me its SchuPO related...
(but in Heer dienst?? or Heer Ausbildung? or something?)

Any idea? My tunic and Espenlaub's dealer offer (which lacks a SchuPo sleeve eagle) but still the latter being more in line with SchuPo...uniform color and unpleated skirt pockets..
Both strange ducks! Is such a combination ligit? Especially in light of the fact that mine is 1945 dated...so not Blitzkrieg era mobilization with transfers/re-assignments...(for MP duty)

[Oscar]

Hi,

I read opinion that this combination (breast eagle and schupo insignias) was only in the early years of war.

Rob

[SCHUPO]

This combination of insignia with the Heer eagle over the pocket and the Polizei eagle on the sleeve was worn by Feldgendarmerie. Most of these folks came from the Gendarmerie but I have an ID book for a Feldgendarm who came from the Bahnschutzpolizei so anything is possible. At some point in wartime the FG cuff title was eliminated. The first tunic is cut in the police style and is made in the police green color. I have identical wartime officer tunics with both original Gendarmerie and Verwaltungspolizei insignia but with Polizei sleeve eagles and no breast eagle. I would closely look at the first uniform to see if it ever had a sleeve eagle and/or a Feldgendarmerie cuff title. This was a wartime officer according to the shoulderboards so maybe an early transitional uniform but hard to say. I think the best bet is that the breast eagle was added as a restoration incorrectly.

Your tunic is certainly oddly cut with the front seams above the breast pockets. I can't comment on what it started out life as but I think we have discussed that before.

[NickG]

Hi,

I read opinion that this combination (breast eagle and schupo insignias) was only in the early years of war.

Rob

I agree Rob such a combination makes a lot more sense for the early (hectic) mobilization period...units being absorbed, loaned out,
temporarily placed for duties in the armed forces (like traffic control police)...
With such a late tunic (1945 inked-out but still readable) it does not fit that time frame...The cut is also more army pattern....and the wool is more field gray than Polizei grün...
but kind of in between the two...The "PO" stamp lead me to believe its still Polizei so the breast eagle came off but because of the scars I put it back on...

Who knows...? Late war was also a hectic period with a hodge-podge of units, battle groups thrown together from various branches
so I will probably just leave it alone this anomaly of a tunic...

[NickG]

I would closely look at the first uniform to see if it ever had a sleeve eagle

Hard to tell...if it had one it was an officer one (based on the boards which came with the tunic) and handstitched on leaving little or no traces...now (re)applied!

I think the best bet is that the breast eagle was added as a restoration incorrectly.

Well I did add the eagle (back) on...It came with this same eagle, but because of the conflicting branch combination I removed it...tunic was shown earlier without the breast eagle...
The Eichenlaub tunic offer made me think mine was still a ligit combination like this...re-applying the eagle in the process...

Your tunic is certainly oddly cut with the front seams above the breast pockets. I can't comment on what it started out life as but I think we have discussed that before.

Yes the cut is very unusual with those front seams....The back also has seams, just like a rock cut back panel! It being late war dated, maybe manufactured with scraps of material? So showing more seams than what you would expect...? If it was custom made like this, why doesn't it have a tailor tag? and instead why does it have issue stamps like "PO" (Polizei) , which would indicate a government supplied/issued garment...
If its government issue it should follow a strict regulated pattern which it does not...really a strange duck...but definitely not post 1945 West German.

The only logical explanation that I can come up with is that it was indeed privately tailored like this or foreign made (with odd seams but very well made) recycled and ended up in Government supplies
and in the process got the "PO" property stamp at a later time for Polizei use...
I have seen prewar 1930's Waffenrocks being recycled and converted for war time field use (alterations like piping removed etc) and in the process receiving RBNr stamps ! The Germans were very thrifty!

[germanpolice]

It is my understanding that regular police uniforms where originally used with the police green armband, after this the police where authorised the feldgendarmerie CT, in the police colour and cut, in wear pryor to the Heer uniform being available. as listed, Hope this helps

Feldgend armband in green still wearing police uniform


Police uniform worn with Police CT for feldgend and Heer eagle on brest, no arm eagle.


Close up


Police Feldgend CT


Ex police now feldgendarmerie. Man at left with police long service on ribbon, middle police burgfuhrer badge worn, and at right police belt buckle

[germanpolice]

Green and black are SD boards

[NickG]

Great images...
Here more examples of mixed insignia...gendarme rural police in Heersfeldgendarmerie...early period as expected...
but amazingly also an NCO around 1942 with a mixed uniform...(dating based on issued campaign medals...)

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/deutsc...niform-166258/

[MarcoPennisi]

Great images...
Here more examples of mixed insignia...gendarme rural police in Heersfeldgendarmerie...early period as expected...
but amazingly also an NCO around 1942 with a mixed uniform...(dating based on issued campaign medals...)

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/deutsc...niform-166258/

Amazing indeed! Obviously this man had been trasuring the early, makeshift Feldgendarmerie service tunic well after the outbreak of the war for full / formal dress.
MP

[MarcoPennisi]

"Polizei Hauptmann in the Wehrmacht” vendor's cataloging sounds odd. I know that SD / RSHA officers were assigned (let's say in a Soviet commissar-like capacity) to Army formations, I’m not aware whether OrPo (SchuPo) commissioned ranks were as well. A forum member may hopefully give info about this.
Over the years I’ve been encountering a few German Police field tunics with Army breast eagles added either to complete what was believed an Army garment or to “restore” a Feldgendarmerie blouse , if the sleeve eagle was already present. In both cases for lack of knowledge and reference literature. I must admit that when I was very young and German Police uniforms were a grey area, I did add Army breast eagles to a wool (1945-dated, by the way!) German Police field blouse and to a German Police HBT four-pocket jacket, believing they were German Army garments , albeit of an odd, positively non-Heer, shade of feldgrau. A sad addition, for the imprint of the Army breast eagle was quite manifest after three decades when unsewing the breast insignia for a more historically accurate restoration.
Beyond postulating last-ditch battle groups of mixed personnel from different services dressed in patchy tunics, I’d also guess discarded Police clothing pressed into Volkssturm service …
The 1945 date stamped inside the tunic should not deceive as to the period of manufacture. The PO+year stamp indicates the acceptance by the clothing depot. The actual manufacture year may be earlier.
Remarks on regulation vs custom-made manufacture are sounds, I’m too inclined to think of a foreign made example.
In the end , apart from the documented instances of Gendarmerie tunics specifically badged for early Feldgendarmen, I stay aloof when coming across such (too) unusual badge mixture.
MP