Polizei rank use in 4th SS Division (pre 1942)?

[NickG]

Anything to add here? Conclusions? Lots of mis-information out there...
(for the "Polizei Experten")

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=750437

[W.Unland]

It's all pretty simple. When the police personnel were militarized they continued to wear police uniforms and insignia. Field tunics existed before militarization and were badged in the typical police manner. Police NCO tabs had silver piping. Later, the piping was dropped on non civil police tunics and gradully SS insignia replaced the police eagle, then tabs and sometimes boards. It depended on the unit supply and replacement was gradully instituted, but not in any uniform manner. Some police guys continued to wear police tabs until the end, and there is at least one photo of a guy, not FG, wearing all SS insignia with his old police sleeve eagle still there.

Everyone is always looking for some absolute standards regarding the police, but experience shows that things were pretty lax, and almost anything can be found in period photos.

The original police division uniforms were identical to civil police.

Of course as in all of my opinions expressed this is my personal interpretation of the evidence. I'm sure others will disagree.

W.Unland

[NickG]

Everyone is always looking for some absolute standards regarding the police, but experience shows that things were pretty lax, and almost anything can be found in period photos.

W.Unland

Indeed! Many more images were added to the thread to prove that point! Thanks Bill!
Any more to add by you Polizei Experten out there?
Post in that thread please!
Link again (last page);

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=750437&page=3

[NickG]

It's all pretty simple. When the police personnel were militarized they continued to wear police uniforms and insignia. Field tunics existed before militarization and were badged in the typical police manner. Police NCO tabs had silver piping. Later, the piping was dropped on non civil police tunics and gradully SS insignia replaced the police eagle, then tabs and sometimes boards. It depended on the unit supply and replacement was gradully instituted, but not in any uniform manner. Some police guys continued to wear police tabs until the end, and there is at least one photo of a guy, not FG, wearing all SS insignia with his old police sleeve eagle still there.

Everyone is always looking for some absolute standards regarding the police, but experience shows that things were pretty lax, and almost anything can be found in period photos.
The original police division uniforms were identical to civil police.

Of course as in all of my opinions expressed this is my personal interpretation of the evidence. I'm sure others will disagree.

W.Unland

OK..Would that explain this? See yellow in link!

Die Reit- und Fahrschule der Waffen SS in den Niederlanden diente der Ausbildung zum Reit- und Fahrlehrer sowie zur Ausbildung zum Futtermeister.
Als Uniform wurde ab dem 30.9.1941 die der SS-Polizei-Division mit der Waffenfarbe der Kavallerie (Goldgelb) getragen.

but staff still maintained Polizei rank titles???

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...55#post6527755

[W.Unland]

Why not? SS uniforms were specified, but police ranks used, that is not unlike police staff officers often described by their police rank AND SS equivalent rank simultaneously in period publications. each SS rank had an equivalent police rank......more or less.........and if police "related" I can see continuing to use police rank structure even though in SS attire. Of course I know of no regulations allowing this, but it was clearly done.

Cops don't give up their hard earned status and ranks easily.

W.Unland

[NickG]

Why not? SS uniforms were specified, but police ranks used, that is not unlike police staff officers often described by their police rank AND SS equivalent rank simultaneously in period publications. each SS rank had an equivalent police rank......more or less.........and if police "related" I can see continuing to use police rank structure even though in SS attire. Of course I know of no regulations allowing this, but it was clearly done.

Cops don't give up their hard earned status and ranks easily.

W.Unland

True Bill. In the "SS Polizei Division" (early designation just plain "Polizei Division") and affiliated training facilities, these troops did all all come from the Polzei personnel pools and therefor (in addition to their newly obtained Waffen SS ranks) of course still maintained their hard earned polizei rank title, but did they still wear polizei rank insignia on SS uniforms early on? We know officers did,
examples of insignia here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=750437&page=4

but what about NCO's in staff functions wonder? Later they wore armed forces Unterfuhrer collar tresse with waffen SS rank insignia...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=750437&page=4

Enlisted men the Division wore combat field uniforms with armed forces shoulderstraps. which came with these combat uniforms, so not the Polizei style.... That is clear to me.later (1942) everybody reverting to standard waffen SS rank insignia. My question relates to the early period (1940-1941)

[W.Unland]

Although not my field of interest, photos that I remember of the period show police tabs with SS or army type boards and police sleeve insignia. Cap insignia reminded police. But again, I am a civil police guy and not really up on the nuance of the combat units.

Regards,
Bill Unland

[NickG]

Yeah true, one correction: period pix usually show police tabs with SS or army type boards and SS sleeve eagle insignia.