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**Mr.Jerry D** · 05-19-2011, 07:37 AM

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves>false</w:TrackMoves> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="******45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> I welcome the discussion. But let's use things like "why" so we all can learn.

I was concerned myself with the somewhat ugly eagle on the ribbon, but the medal I liked with that IMO somewhat hard to fake "Fire Gilt" mirror finish to the edged and swazi. So I sent images to several people I respect before I posted it to get their opinions.

Of those 4 people, 3 had no problem, with comments like "they all look good to me" and "The Police Cross is very nice" only one voiced any concerns, and he was going to research it further, he said:

"This one doesn't look as crude as most reproductions I've seen but the pebbled field inside the wreath and around the bird is very unusual"

I had already received the others responses to the positive so I listed it before I received his opinion.

And not that it matters, but everything else it came with checked out to be good. (But that did matter to me!)

In the spirit of the forum I will suspend the sale upon further investigation.

Thanks!

**Dave C.** · 05-19-2011, 07:38 AM

Hi Peter, the one thing that really jumps out at me is the pebbling inside the wreath around the eagle when I'm familar with only a smooth finish. Sort of reminds me of this past example.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=long+service

**Bob Hritz** · 05-19-2011, 10:08 AM

Is there only one accepted maker of the police 25 year service medal? I would think this medal would have been made by numerous firms and display the variation of many of the other medals.

Perhaps medal makers' illustrated catalogues would be a good place to start.

Bob Hritz

**Dave C.** · 05-19-2011, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Is there only one accepted maker of the police 25 year service medal? I would think this medal would have been made by numerous firms and display the variation of many of the other medals.

Perhaps medal makers' illustrated catalogues would be a good place to start.

Bob Hritz

Hi Bob, the answer is no. There were multiple makers and slight variations in design are observed. A number of these have been posted in past threads but all had a smooth field inside the wreath except for the one linked. Or at least I do not remember another being pebbled.

Starting with illustrated maker catalogs would be a good along with regulations/orders...I just seen one the other night that I will have to photograph.

**Peter J.** · 05-19-2011, 04:56 PM

Dave, thanks for adding that thread, here's another on this topic:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=Police+25

Further more, the "ribbon"at the bottom of the wreath is totally different from the very slim originals. The ribbon looks suspect as well, the eagle is not centered and it should be clearly visible looking to the left.

cheers
Peter

**Mr.Jerry D** · 05-22-2011, 07:42 PM

So looking at all of the pictures, what I seem to have found, is that there is a version with a stippled background, that has straighter cross arms, slightly bolder features, and a straight wreath ribbon. But the ones seen all seem to have these same traits so we can assume to be from the same maker.

So how do we know that this "version" is indeed a fake and not just another manufacturer variant?

( Obviously I have a dog in this fight, but looking at the finish and construction compared to the other confirmed 'real' examples I own, there is really nothing other than the details mentioned that looks different. The medal 'rings' like a good medal strike would.)

I will post some comparative photos later tonight.

**Mr.Jerry D** · 05-24-2011, 08:38 PM

some more pics for comparison. Different from the "Good" ones, but in some ways made better.

**Mr.Jerry D** · 05-25-2011, 07:29 PM

The more I think about this, this pieces highlights are fire-gilted, a process that used gold & vaporized mercury, which is highly toxic, and I am sure has not been done for quite some time.

**Dave C.** · 05-27-2011, 12:59 PM

Excellent comparative pictures, thanks for posting those! Authentic, variation or better reproduction, it would certainly be nice if we had a definitive answer on this example in question. The finish is rather nice with what appears to be age and wear. It does look better than the linked examples. Although I have to say that I prefer the comparative example with the smooth surface inside the wreath due to detail and proportions.

From doing a little searching and reading, it appears that fire-gilding is still used to with the risk of mercury vapor inhalation being well recognized. Although enough searching will also produce comments that this process is no longer used, go figure.

**Dave C.** · 05-28-2011, 08:40 AM

This doesn't solve anything but some photos from a period regulation (Split the page in half but I recognized I didn't photograph the previous page where it started until later)

Attached Files

**Dave C.** · 06-01-2011, 07:47 PM

Posting for Peter:

Hi Jerry,
I promised you to pursue this topic, which actually turned out to be quite interesting. My initial concerns were based on my own rule i.e. more than two anomalies compared with the expected and I’m getting worried. Granted your type could originate from the time prior to the LDO regulations and I’ll give it the benefit of a doubt. I have only one full size Polizei 25 for comparison (Polizei 25) , but I’ve checked my miniatures to see if there are any consistencies. Unfortunately that only added to the confusion and I’ll try elaborating the best I can.

My cross is most probably in buntmetall with hand-finished high-lights. It’s most definitely not die-struck, as the shear marks are not consistent in direction and the inner cross arms slope down from the middle and out. I don’t believe this is “feuer vergoldet”, more likely some kind of electro-plating of which I would be delighted to learn more about. I’m not so sure the general conception that these crosses (along with the civilian TD and Wehrmacht TD) actually were fire-gilded, as I think that nuance is deeper and darker, and also is applied in two rather thick layers. The image of that paint illustrates those two layers present on a mini (feuer vergoldet). Your cross appears to be darker than the other “text book”-cross, but still it’s a lot more sparkling than the colour on i.g a Flottenkrieg, which I find is the axiom for fire-gilded.

Like I said, the miniatures are complicated. The Polizei 18 (2xPolizei) is a nicely struck cross with the expected features, where as the 25 cross is slightly larger and die forged. There is even a cavity visible at the bottom of the left arm. The two civilian TD’s are are similar in appearances (TD+TD), the one to the right has visible shear marks inside the wreath, the left cross is die forged. The two Wehrmacht TD’s are interesting in one aspect (2xHeer TD) , the 25 cross with ribbon appears to feature the colour of the base metal, the other is slightly shinier. For reference, the dull cross is identical in nuance with a Polizei cross in normal size that I encountered 30 years ago, identical in design to yours. I also purchased an 18 year Wehrmacht cross mini a few years ago, I should have kept it for reference, but sent it back as it was in shiny gold colour! All these last crosses are die forged.

I don’t really know what conclusions to draw by all this, but I find it hard to believe the minis illustrated here are fakes and that the similarities to your cross force us to possibly re-consider our thoughts on the originality. Now it’s up to you guys to take this farther.

cheers
Peter

Attached Files

**Dave C.** · 06-01-2011, 07:49 PM

More pictures from Peter:

Attached Files

**Dave C.** · 06-01-2011, 07:49 PM

one more

Attached Files

feuer_vergoldet.JPG (61.8 KB, 78 views)

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Polizei 25 on the E-stand

Polizei 25 on the E-stand

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