Black Police Overseas/M43 Cap Eagle

[RobertE]

Hello folks,

This style of police eagle was posted on the recent thread dealing with the variety of original police cap eagles.

Does anyone have a problem with this design?

Regards, Robert

[W.Unland]

Hello,

These eagles with the rosette at the bottom of the wreath are considered to be reproductions. They have been discussed before on the forum and are seen with a brown rayon base cloth as well.

Regards,
William Unland

[Dave C.]

Yep, it's been mentioned before that this pattern first appeared on brown and then subsequently on black after realizing the error made.

[RobertE]

Bill, Dave - thanks. I have the replica brown one in hand, and they are identical.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

Very odd conversation with the family of the 89-year-old veteran. They had this eagle - there are actually 13 of them uncut on a strip - in with his effects. He's a bonafide WWII vet with no collector ties.

They categorically denied he ever collected anything, and that this was just in with his uniform effects.

I know these have long been considered replicas - I do as well. Still, the fact this came from a living WWII vet's family is thought provoking.

regards, Robert

[Diane]

Odd style cap eagle

Hello,

I have always believed these eagle to be of period manufacture. All the examples I have seen are made of 100% rayon fibers.

They may be a manufactures variation or more likely a production error.

Diane

[W.Unland]

Dear Robert,

This is the problem in "authenticating" any of the relics we collect. Absent period photographic proof that a "pattern" was used during the period we really have no way to be sure. Our judgment is based on supposition and argument, both of which can be flawed.

Years ago, when I posted my brown eagle on the other forum the more experienced collectors pointed out to me that the brown color was absolutely unauthorized, and that there was no legitimate use for such an eagle. They also pointed out that the "rosette" at the bottom of the wreath was an aberration from the "normal" design of crossed ribbons or ties. Finally the "cheapness" of the manufacture, notice the vertical "cracks" in the weave, suggested non-period manufacture. Those observations were enough for me at the time.

My normal criteria in pronouncing an eagle as a reproduction demands that I find the same eagle for sale AS a reproduction, or find some manufacturing details such as totally wrong color or design that clearly mark the item as NOT from the NS-zeit. I am not quite sure that the brown color of the incident eagle qualifies under my criteria.

To be honest nothing in the construction other than the poor quality suggests caution to me. I have seen so many variations in design over the years that the "rosette" does not bother me as much as it once did. I have not seen a flood of these eagles on the market, suggesting that if they are reproductions very few were actually made.

I think that the best argument that can be made regarding their questionable origin is that the brown backed eagles really do NOT have a place in regulations. But it could be argued that these were intended for the "crusher" cap, or Hausmutze of the pre-war years. Your story lends a certain amount of credibility to the argument. BUT we all know that the Germans did indeed manufacture stuff to sell to occupation troops right after the war, so being in a vet's estate in and of itself is not "proof" of period use.

I would personally be open to a re-examination of these eagles. I don't recall if there is evidence of their being offered for sale in any of the early 70's repro catalogs, if there is that would put the issue to rest. JoeW , George W., Dave or any other US collector around at the time might have just such a reference and I would invite them to respond.

Regards,
William Unland

[RobertE]

I got my brown eagle in about 1976, but it was just off a show table. I agree the embroidery is shallow and the brown backing not authorized (as far as we know).

I don't take everything from a vet as gospel, but I do believe it has to be weighed with the rest of the evidence - we are very quick these days to "buy the article, not the story".

Bill and Diane suggest we take another look or at least consider the alternative - I agree. These are fairly insignificant pieces, really, but it would be a neat variation if they turn out to be real.

regards, Robert

[SCHUPO]

Bill,

I did personally see and handle the brown eagles (with a diamond) for sale at a fleamarket in Germany years ago. I have also seen the same black eagle machine sewn onto fake Panzer Police caps that came out of Germany some years ago. They were sewn onto the fake Pz. Pol., Gempo, etc piped caps with the "Extra Qualitat" half leather sweatbands that somebody faked in Germany at that time.

[JoeW]

George, I agree with your assessment on these. I don't know if you have to go back to the 70s Bill. The 90s works too. Here is one of the "Woody Woodpecker" on black sewn to a repro police Hausmutze I bought out of Germany from a former US military fellow who set up shop there. I thought it looked good and the price was not expensive. From early Ebay if I remember. I have to dig in the files as I didn't put in on data base. I peeked inside the liner and it glowed pretty bad. When I wrote the seller he told me I violated the deal.

[JoeW]

A lot of comments about how they are made and original material and such. But I would like to see a photo of one. There are a lot of photos of o'seas cap eagles, but they all seem to have the normal heads. And it is just amazing that these production errors or whatever they would be called, only appear on fake headgear out of Germany. Isn't one of them on a fake panzer cap that Patrick photographed at the SOS some years ago?

[RobertE]

I'd like to see a photo too. Stranger birds have turned out to be real. I don't personally believe they are, but that could be collector bias based on decades of being represented as bad. I do think that the fact they are attached to many pieces of bad headgear is a strike against them, but it could just be that they were to be had cheaply and fakers had access to them.

No one has to reach any conclusion here and now, but I do think that any insignia that doesn't have clear lineage to a known repro maker should be revisited from time to time.

The early days of ebay...there were some nice pieces to be had alright!

s/f Robert

[Richard P]

I got my brown eagle in about 1976, but it was just off a show table. I agree the embroidery is shallow and the brown backing not authorized (as far as we know).

I don't take everything from a vet as gospel, but I do believe it has to be weighed with the rest of the evidence - we are very quick these days to "buy the article, not the story".

Bill and Diane suggest we take another look or at least consider the alternative - I agree. These are fairly insignificant pieces, really, but it would be a neat variation if they turn out to be real.

regards, Robert

I thought that this type of eagle found loose and also found on a period cap ended the question as to whether any eagles were produced and used with a brown background on Police crushers?

Richard

[RobertE]

Looks convincing to me, Richard. I hadn't seen these pictures; thanks for including them.

[Dave C.]

I thought that this type of eagle found loose and also found on a period cap ended the question as to whether any eagles were produced and used with a brown background on Police crushers?

Richard

Richard, I for one am not convinced with that thought logic. I remain skeptical after seeing a number of these brown insignia appear approximately two years ago and now a cap appears with one and in some ultra rare configuration. Coincidence, maybe, but this gives me pause.

Below is a photo with the metal eagle on top for size comparison, which is really close. Then knowing the metal insignia is typically placed over the top piping of the band caused me to measure the width of the band of several polizei visors. What I found was the band width ranged from 42-45mm vs. the 47mm height (edges of the of the dark brown woven material were typically folded) of the insignia in question. It is a small difference but there was likely a uniform/regulatory width to the band and why would they produce an insignia outside of that parameter of this hypothesized use. Perhaps in error it was assumed it could be the same size as the metal insignia but who really knows, so this subject remains unanswered and open for debate.