Diplomats Metal Cap Eagle Fake or Real??

[stonemint]

Okay - that's what comes from simplifying.

No civil or state organizations (non-NSDAP formations as defined by the Party in various statutes) came under the official jurisdiction of the RZM. The RZM was a Party Hauptamt to control and license Party equipment & insignia. It has no jurisdiction over purely civil organizations and their insignia.

This is not confusing at all and makes a great rule of thumb when looking at markings on insignia. So, the SS, SA, HJ, DAF, Frauenschaft, and NSDAP PO were all subject to the RZM.

Civil orgs like the RAD, TENO, RMbO, Polizei, and all branches of the military (except Waffen-SS) were not under the RZM. Anything from them with an RZM mark is probably a fake dressed up to fool.

There are of course errors that were made and exceptions to the rules, as there always are. The problem is people take the exceptions and then make a new rule with them - "I have a RMbO eagle RZM marked, so the RMbO must have been under the RZM". Of course not true and an easy way to part a fool with his money.

The RZM marking system was strict and had multiple levels of checks, but a few errors still snuck through. There is a set of Luft dagger hangers marked RZM UE 10 - an early error from when the RZM was startung out and some manufacturers were struggling with the new regs in 1934-35. I've heard of a late Heer buckle with an M4 code (which I am skeptical of), and I know of a handful of other badges that were mistakenly RZM marked.

They are however a very small handful, as wrongful use of the RZM mark carried fines, up to 2 years imprisonment and the loss of licenses and contracts, and it was enforced.

I've never seen a Zoll eagle with an RZM mark. It may be one of the rare errors in marking, as Zoll was never under the RZM. I could guess it was made under an SS contract when Zoll was brought under the SS's control and they made a factory mistake, but I know of no other Zoll insignia so marked.

All I'm saying is you need to understand the mandate and regulations of the RZM to know why civil stuff should never be RZM marked, and if you have one, be very suspicious.

I'd love it to be a simple issue to avoid "confusion", but it is not for those who don't take time to read the regs.

I just want to avoid a situation where 100's of collectors start ripping off their RZM-marked civil insgnia because of a misconception on their part.
I agree about the RZM, but as we know, for every rule in the Third Reich, there was an exception. I have seen many real political visors (HJ, SS, Party, etc) that were non-RZM marked--a prima facie RZM violation.
I have also seen visor makers "flaunt" their RZM-approved status on their documents and advertising.
My only hypothesis is that these civil makers were doing just that--overkill on their part.
The Zoll insignia I have seen with RZM marks appear to be pre-early war in quality--no zinc, with polishing (and frosting) in some cases. The 45mm eagles were rendered obsolete by the M-38 state eagle, and I agree, both were not authorized under the RZM, but all appear to early quality.

I have also seen RZM-marked "stubby-winged" DRB eagles (the M-35) which, likewise, were not authorized for use on Political headgear.
I will have to check my files for pics of the latter. I know I also have an M-38 state eagle with RZM markings on a DRB m-41 General's visor. I will post pics later tonight.

[stonemint]

Here is that Genralgouvernement visor that came out of Germany last year (and is now on Oakleaf's site).
It is a standard PL Form IV Reichsleitung visor, however, the top is more of a mottled-brown wool to match the GG uniforms. (These are not RMBO visors).

The GG was not under the aegis of the Party, and hence the RZM, but there is an RZM tag nonetheless.

[Military]

If there is only a way to see if any markings lie behind the eagle on the 'oakleaf' visor.

The ones that have been posted and the one Don Scowen posted are two different variants. I am not convinced that Don's a good one as the detailing isnt crisp and the prongs are also badly soldered. I may be wrong, so just my frank opinion.

Mil

[Military]

From my records, there seems to be a few variations of the Zoll eagle.

Assmann variant
M1/53 Variant (identical to stonemints)
Unmarked Tombak variant
Unmarked Alu variant (smooth back)
Unmarked Alu variant (hollowout back)

Mil

[stonemint]

Ok, here is your garden variety M-38 state eagle, most often seen on Postal visors. RZM # M1/47:

[stonemint]

Getting back to the Diplo eagle, here is another. Look at how crude the fletching is to the wings:

[stonemint]

The spurious RZM mark:

[Rick C]

Getting back to the Diplo eagle, here is another. Look at how crude the fletching is to the wings:

Stonemint's image & three from Angolia:

[Rick C]

not sure I see 'much' difference... (note the split pin on the gold one)

[stonemint]

Rick, Angolias book (and books) have more than a few bad pieces in them.
The Diplo visor on the cover of "In the Service of the Reich" is actually a fake that was owned by Angolia himself. He then tried to dump it on ebay some 11 years back, and was called out on it.
As to the eagle, consenus is that they were Delta or Globe fakes.

[Military]

I would agree with stonemint that the one on angolia's is a delta.

[Military]

You will find a similar styled eagle (not identical) here from a book that was posted on the e-stand.

Mil


Photo credits: Richard.

[stonemint]

Mil:

Here is a very rare portrait pic of a Generalgouverenment official wearing the Mottled-brown Form 4 visor with the gold GG insignia:
(This was just on the estand--congrats to the new owner!)

[stonemint]

Here's one of the double-prongs that just popped up on another website. Note this one is aluminum.

[Patrick W]

what do these eagles go for? never see them