Diplomats Metal Cap Eagle Fake or Real??

[stonemint]

Here is a link to a discussion in regard to this eagle:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=RMBO+Eagle

And here is a copy of a page from the 1973 catalog of W.W.#2 LTD as referenced in the discussion.

Thanks, Ron--I remember them well. Almost all their stuff was cast alloy, with a high degree of lead in the mix.

[Military]

So do original RMBO eagles have the RZM mark and if so, any M1 prefixes?
We need a good photo of the back.

Mil

[RonR]

Ron, Did Delta also produce these copies?

Mil

Was not able to find them listed in any of their old catalogs from that same time period.

[Bob Hritz]

Those sold by WWII Products, in St. Louis, Missouri, were all stamped from a tombak-like metal with a faint silver wash. They were available back in the mid 1960s and sold for several decades, by the hundreds, if not thousands. The same metal was used for their fake SS eagles and skulls that were marked RZM 41.

Every piece of original Third Reich produced silver plated insignia, when made of a tombak-type base metal, had a durable and quality silver plate finish, not a thin wash. I do not believe the RZM had control over insignia and uniforms for diplomatic service or foreign service. I have yet to find evidence of that.

I do not believe these eagles and I would bet all can be traced back to WWII Products, IF you had a strong enough chain of custody and a stronger Polygraph.

Bob Hritz

[Military]

To add on to this discussion,

According to Silesien in the other thread, he mentions that these were
"sold by WW2 Products Ltd., St. Louis, - it's pictured on page 38 in their old catalog, item #130."

Bob Coleman also pointed out that
"To the best of my memory, they showed up in 1969 or 1970, Both companies cited sold these items."

I guess like all other items in debate, we can only be sure when we come across a solid piece added with provenance.
Just my 2 cents.

Mil

[RonR]

[quote=Military;4020703]According to Silesien in the other thread, he mentions that these were
"sold by WW2 Products Ltd., St. Louis, - it's pictured on page 38 in their old catalog, item #130."


The catalog pictured above from WW2 Ltd is #33 , dated 1973.

[Military]

Ron, the WW2 products catalogue cites that it is in silver.
Could Delta have produced the other type?

or Does this mean that non-silvered specimens (with a copper-like wash) are legit?

I had the opportunity to examine both specimens some time ago, and the RMBO with a copper-finishing seemed to be a thin wash or plating.

[Rick C]

So... reproductions were sold by numerous sources from the sixties through the seventies. I certainly hope no one’s expecting this tidbit to be the defining factor of any discussion of authenticity on this stuff we collect. EVERYTHING’s been copied, marketed & sold from 45 to 2010. How might the ‘existence’ of fakes be germane to this.

We’ve seen chat whether these should or shouldn’t have an RZM logo on them. Bob Hirtz doesn’t believe “the RZM had control over insignia and uniforms for diplomatic service or foreign service.” But, he has no evidence of that.

In the previous thread Pascal felt, from his research, the examples he had seen were authentic. In this thread Jon-Olav shows a photo of a similarly badged cap & Stonemint’s opinion is provided that it’s authentic.

More obsessing with who made them in the 60s & 70’s...

After all this Military requeries “So do original RMBO eagles have the RZM mark and if so, any M1 prefixes? We need a good photo of the back.”

Why not ask Kristian Anderson of Oakleafmilitaria to take a look at his? That might bring the subject a bit closer to conclusion.

[sjl]

The RZM definitely didn't control or mark RMBO insignia. The RMBO was a civil / state authority and the RZM only had jurisdiction over certain NSDAP party organizations. RMBO was not a Party organization. RMBO does not appear on the lists of controlled organizations in any of the RZM literature or organizations I have seen.

While RZM marking errors did rarely appear early in its history during the transition period (1934-35) the RMBO came along much later and I wouldn't believe an RZM mark on its insignia.

The fact that the mark shown has no "M1" prefix, and has the classic 1960-70s "lazy M" in the logo, I would say these are Delta / WWII Inc. repros.

[Military]

Stephen, when you wrote "these are Delta / WWII Inc. repros". which are you referring to? All of the above insignias, including those on the visor caps?

Mil

[sjl]

I saw the RMbO cap eagles as a kid in my WWII Inc. catalog.

I would consider any RMbO insignia with an RZM mark very suspect. The Reichsministerium für die besetzten Ostgebiete wasn't RZM-controlled, and even if these samples are mistakenly period marked, they still don't conform to RZM marking conventions (bad logo, no M prefix). The RMbO was created in 1939 as an adjunct of the Foreign Ministry, I think, long after the RZM had established maker licenses and markings under law.

RZM logos without anything else (no number or maker name) didn't appear, even in the early days of the RZM (late 1934 / early 1935). License numbers appeared early 1935 and the "M" prefix became mandatory late spring 1935. I don't believe an RZM logo alone with no number or makers name ever happened even in the early days of the RZM - certainly not by 1939.

I don't know RMbO cloth very well. It would be interesting to see any makings on the cap.

[Gary Symonds]

I missed the RZM on this one. If its there, I agree, a fake. Mine does not have the RZM mark. I stand corrected. Sorry.

[Silesien]

I should point out / clarify that my old WW#2 Ltd catalog I mentioned in my post, with the eagle on page 38, is from Catalog #47 from 1978.

[Robin Lumsden]

Remember...................some undoubtedly original Post Office etc. eagles also have RZM markings, which should not be there!

[stonemint]

Remember...................some undoubtedly original Post Office etc. eagles also have RZM markings, which should not be there!

Robin is 100% correct. As a civil headgear collector, RZM-marked visor insignia is seen almost as much as non-RZM marked. Could just be "overkill" on the makers part.

Here is the common Forestry visor eagle: