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**W.Unland** · 11-08-2009, 07:13 PM

I must admit that I think that the WSP was more inclined to have such six feathered eagles because I believe that their insignia was made by naval tailors more accustomed to making bullion insignia than the civil tailors who would have made the other police branch's eagles. This is conjecture on my part based on the unique materials used in WSP eagles when compared to "standard" eagles.

Now to be sure, I believe that the VAST, VAST majority of police sleeve eagles were rendered in three feathers for the reason stated, and to be sure the templates used to make them that have survived normally have the wings divided into three sections as shown here:

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**W.Unland** · 11-08-2009, 07:16 PM

That said, an intriguing photo was posted by Dave C a few years ago showing a SIX feathered template from a reference book.

Since NCO eagles were machine embroidered no template was required for their production, this template MUST have been intended to be used to produce the fabled six feathered officer's sleeve eagle.

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**W.Unland** · 11-08-2009, 07:20 PM

Consequently, I must conclude that six feathered officer's sleeve eagles are indeed a possibility, and should not be dismissed out of hand.

Once again I have to restate that because of being easier to produce three feathered eagles are the norm. Also many reproduction officer's eagles have been made with six feathers in the past, so EXTREME caution is called for when considering such an eagle, but I have to suggest that they did indeed exist.

Regards,
W.Unland

**billbert** · 11-08-2009, 08:04 PM

Great thread..thanks !! Billbert

**Huntzman** · 11-08-2009, 09:39 PM

Bill

Great job !!!!!! I thank you for taking the time to contribute another intelligent & insightful post that I hope will help all collectors navigate the potential pitfalls of police insignia.

Your knowledge and insight into this topic is amazing, and has been a great help to me personally.

I agree with your summation. The six feather eagle is a possibility, as witnessed by the WSP version, but I would have to see some form of photographic evidence of it's use before I would commit a healthy chunk of change to an an item.

Andrew

**W.Unland** · 11-08-2009, 09:39 PM

I forgot to note above that it is also important to remember that the "official" police eagle, as found on all police documents, awards, public signage, etc had SIX feathers, not three. The three feathered officer's eagles do not follow this "official" design. Again I suggest that this was for practical reasons of production rather than some specific design specification.

Of course that brings us back to the eagle that re-started this discussion, the six feathered eagle on the panzer wrap on Shea's site.

To me the wreath is very well done but the body is poorly formed and asymmetrical. The body detail threads are not well done either. The wings themselves appear to be executed in six separate sections, EXTREMELY difficult to pull off and a definite PLUS for this eagle being authentic.

Could it be an authentic eagle? I now have to admit that it might, BUT for the reasons stated, NOT because of the six feathers, I still have some reservations. It seems amazing to me that a person that could render the six separate wing feathers couldn't get the legs and body straight???? Perhaps stretched fabric, just impossible to tell from the photo. But I have to admit that I have changed my thinking after this exercise and am now open to it's being a good eagle.

Regards,
W.Unland

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**Dave C.** · 11-10-2009, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by W.Unland View Post

That said, an intriguing photo was posted by Dave C a few years ago showing a SIX feathered template from a reference book.

Since NCO eagles were machine embroidered no template was required for their production, this template MUST have been intended to be used to produce the fabled six feathered officer's sleeve eagle.

Hi Bill, a very interesting tread! JoeW's example has to be about as best case as I've seen when it comes to 6-feather insignia. Other than that, I have not been sold by them and find it suspect when these seem to only appear on tunics of General's rank or Panzer. That's just in my experience with them.

In regard to the template, did you happen to notice that wings are cut to provide the illusion of a three feather insignia? Sort of like JoeW's... I just noticed that and will post a better picture. This example was included in the SA Insignia book by Fuller.

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**JoeW** · 11-10-2009, 11:07 PM

Well we have 6 feathers and 3 feathers, so how about a 5 feathered bird?

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**JoeW** · 11-10-2009, 11:09 PM

These are photos that Jack Angolia sent to me back in '94 of an officer's cap eagle. I don't know if he remembered to put it in his and HPT's book. Now that was some serious detail work, wouldn't you agree Bill? Had to use a magnifying glass to do the feathers.

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**W.Unland** · 11-10-2009, 11:31 PM

Dear Joe,

Indeed we DO have authentic 5 feathered NCO eagles as shown here.

I think that we as collectors get too convinced that "traditional accepted" standards were invented by other collectors after the fact. I don't think cops counted the feathers on their insignia when they bought it, and since there was no RZM or military supply system to check on such things almost anything COULD be authentic..........within reason.

I like the cap eagle you post. Of course bullion cap insignia were supposed to be limited to WSP officers so this eagle is contrary to accepted standards in more than one way, but I still like it. Putting six feathers on such a small piece would be IMPOSSIBLE, the detail threads would run together so such an eagle is entirely feasible to me. The workmanship is excellent. The 6 feather WSP cap eagle I post above is considerably larger.

I also agree with Dave that 6 feathered officer's eagles will be EXTREMELY suspect and authentic examples incredibly rare. I feel MOST are fakes applied to 'exotics" to jazz them up and make them look "special". But I think them entirely possible.

Regards,
W.Unland

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**JoeW** · 11-29-2009, 06:52 PM

"Most "knowledge" in the field of Police Officer eagle collecting is based on the color drawings (Ruhl, Taschenbücher, etc) that clearly show 3-feather design. Next to that there is some collector "concensus" that the six-feather officers eagles are suspect.
I cannot remember having ever read a specification detailing the number of feathers....not for nco, not for officers....BUT--> The large RUHL color drawings (of which one is reproduced at true size and can be purchased at Bender) were officially sanctioned drawings that had the same power as a written regulation.

Indeed untill a period photograph shows up with a bullion six-feather officers eagle being clearly worn these eagles will remain suspect.

That said.....the various examples shown in this topic do look convincing....were it not for the 6 feathers...." Ernst-H quoted from http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=392234

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJoe%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJoe%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CJoe%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

ontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w

ontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w

ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="******45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> I must apologize for failing to pursue this six-feather question with more purpose. Sometimes I forget what I have seen or have acquired over the years. Such is the case with this color chart “Uniform der deutschen Polizei” published under the authority of the RFSS u ChdDtPol in June 1939. I have had a photographic reproduction of it for many years having pieced it together from three photographs of an original chart into a 12 x 17 example that has been hanging on a low spot on a collection room wall for at least 20 years, more frequently covered with stacked plastic storage cases. After reading some of this thread the other night, I suddenly remembered that this chart had close-up views of various eagle designs. I looked and sure enough. Here were examples of the six-feather eagles and an explanation for them. I didn’t want to reproduce the entire chart, so I excerpted portions of the listed “Ärmelabzeichen” eagles and the title and authority citation and stitched the images together in a somewhat sloppy manner. I apologize for my ineptitude with this printer program.
<o></o>
Notice the six feather golden yellow eagle is described in German as “Ärmelabzeichen fűr Wasserpol. Fűr Offiziere und Inspektoren aus goldgelbem Metallgespinst. Im űbringen aus Kunstseidengespinst.” This translates as ‘Arm Insignia of the Water Police: For officers and Inspectors of golden-yellow spun metal, As for the others (non Officers and Inspectors) artificial silk embroidery.’<o></o>
<o></o>
The other arm insignia eagle is in deep gold with three feathers and is described in German as “Ärmelabzeichen fűr Generale und Beamte im Generalsrang (fűr Offiziere, Inspektoren, Oberjunker, junker und Beamte im Offiziersrang-außer Wasserschutzpol-aluminiumfarbig.” This translates as ‘Arm Insignia for Generals and Officials in General rank (for Officers, Inspectors, Senior Officer Canidates, Officer Candidates and Officials in Officer rank- except Water Police- aluminum color.’
<o></o>
Of further interest are the three examples of “Műtzenabzeichen”-cap insignia- that I did not reproduce. All eagles have six feathered wings. One is in gold and described for Generals and Officials in General Rank. A second is also in gold and described for the Water Police and Traffic Officials (for Officers and Inspectors of the Water Police out of yellow-gold spun metal. As for the others out of yellow-gold metal). The third eagle is aluminum colored and described as “For all other Uniform Wearers (out of white aluminum, for Officers Inspectors, Senior Officer Candidates and Officials in Officer rank out of spun aluminum).

So we see an official description of sleeve and cap insignia that clearly supports the contention of Bill Unland, that the Water Police were authorized to march to a different drummer in regards to their uniforms. Moreover, I have another uniform chart, the Ruhl series, that displays five feather sleeve eagle wings. Thank you Bill, for pushing me to think outside of the box. I believe this officially sanctioned uniform charts show that there was no stipulation of number of eagle feathers either in printed regulation or approved illustration. It was a matter of manufacturer discretion that in turn was effected by their skill and economic considerations.

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**W.Unland** · 11-29-2009, 08:06 PM

Dear Joe,

Thank you for this most interesting information.

It certainly adds to the discussion, and seems to offer some "official" support for my theory regarding six feathered police officer's eagles as presented above. I think that absent written regulations we will all have to accept what we are comfortable with. Frankly, even WITH written regulations I think police insignia would still be widely open to interpretation

Police insignia was NOT controlled by any organization or authority, particularly away from the big cities. It was all locally made and produced at the instruction of local buyers. I think that each artifact must be considered with an open mind.
Police eagle collection is certainly not for the faint of heart. Unlike SS insignia where collectors can fall back upon thread counts and measurements to ascertain authenticity, police insignia is extremely varied and offers many variations on a theme. With officer's eagles I think production time spent and operator's skills also play a significant part in the final product.

I would in conclusion caution against accepting as inviolate some of the "rules" that we collectors have invented over the years. It seems without significant doubt that the three feather "rule" must be open to question.

In any case, thanks again.

Regards,
Bill Unland

**Ernst-H** · 12-12-2009, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

So we see an official description of sleeve and cap insignia that clearly supports the contention of Bill Unland, that the Water Police were authorized to march to a different drummer in regards to their uniforms. Moreover, I have another uniform chart, the Ruhl series, that displays five feather sleeve eagle wings. Thank you Bill, for pushing me to think outside of the box. I believe this officially sanctioned uniform charts show that there was no stipulation of number of eagle feathers either in printed regulation or approved illustration. It was a matter of manufacturer discretion that in turn was effected by their skill and economic considerations.

Bringing this one back to the top.

Joe, you are correct by bringing this Big wallchart into the discussion. I have a copy of that one in my files but hadn't looked at it in that much detail untill you mentioned it. The quotes you make are indeed correct and I can only support the conclusion that based on these charts (which I earlier referenced as "period regulation" myself) the 3 feather "rule" can be blown out the window. That being said most six-feather eagles out there do remain suspect in my view.

to further add here is a non-regulation 3-feather Bullion WSP cap eagle on an NCO visocap

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**dblmed** · 12-12-2009, 09:00 AM

Great Thread(!)

Bill – Accolades to you for your scholarly approach & open-mindedness regarding these ‘non-traditional’ (per usual Collector standards!) 6 Feather Police Officer Eagles! Your exceptionally well documented & utterly educational Posting, is what the leading edge of TR Collecting is all about. Congratulations & keep these ‘discoveries’

Joe, Dave & Ernst (& Bill) – Many Thanks for your additional input, research comparisons & references. Your combined lifetimes of Collecting add a knowledge base dimension, which is without parallel. Our Thanks! … Txs, Dave/dblmed

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