Pollice-Panzer Officer's Set

[Mike C]

Hello all,

Not my lane here - but take a look at Bill Shea's new uniform update (exotic/rare stuff). I have no idea if it is good - but it sure looks nice!

Mike

[Ernst-H]

At least the officers sleeve eagle is a known to be suspect....being a six-feather design
Many high end fakes (like generals tunics) have featured the six feathered eagle

[Richard P]

Here is the eagle for discussion, I am surprised that no one has said anything about it yet. I don't feel qualified on an unusual piece, on the standard bullion stuff all I can do is look up known originals vs known fakes.

Richard

[W.Unland]

As Ernst mentioned, these SIX feathered officer's eagles have shown up on put together general's tunics in the past, I assume in an attempt to make them look "special". Regulations called for three feathers. I have never seen a good 6 feathered officer's SLEEVE eagle. Cap eagle maybe, but not sleeve. This particular eagle is actually pretty well made,perhaps even well made, except I do note it's asymmetry and strange body design.

I cannot comment on the authenticity of the tunic itself, in fact it looks good to me, but I do not like this eagle, nor the tabs. The color seems odd. Clearly this eagle has been added as the sewing is mediocre at best, and it does suggest that the uniform has seen some post war work, BUT since I am convinced most tunics were de-nazified that doesn't surprise me.

Good tunic with bad eagle or totally put together, I will leave that to those who have actually examined a real police panzer wrap.

W.Unland

[Ernst-H]

The detail on the eagle looks convincing and basically all that is strange IMO on the eagle is the six-feathers.....which should not be on an officers eagle.
One can never rule out that these could have existed, but untill photographic evidence is found I personally do not believe in them
Of course I am allways willing to be educated so would welcome other opinions.


I will post a few pictures of similar eagles that I have saved to my computer over the years. These were on tunics that back then were considered not good.

First one a generals eagle on a tunic. Picture saved in 2002

[Ernst-H]

second picture was saved to my computer in 2007.
I believe it was on a panzer-wrap with the heer-like collartabs (with panzer-skulls)

[Ernst-H]

third is a picture I saved back in 2005.
The eagle was on a supposed green police Panzerwrap, again with heer-like collartabs (with panzer skulls)

[Richard P]

I have only seen it in photos and I feel it is an original wrap, probably a fairly late wrap, 44 or later. Interesting observation is that the Panzer Police piped their black wraps collars right up until the end, unlike Heer wraps where the practice was discontinued, except private application.

Digital photos do present problems at times as far as color. Here is a tab photo, it looks like an original application from the back in photos, in hand would hopefully tell the tale. I am not a police tab expert, so that is up to you guys too.I will also bow to you guys on the eagle...although it almost sounds like it might have a chance. I agree on the denazification...if you have a general's uniform out of Europe, I can almost guarantee the eagle was removed and usually in a pocket of haphazardly re-applied.

I did have a friend check it out in person and felt it was an original wrap. He also checked out the Regimental's wrap and felt the base wrap was original...which it was although modified and with a fake eagle mounted. Looks like someone has pulled the hook out of place.

Ernst H. Thanks for saving and sharing the photos, very interesting.

Richard

[JoeW]

While I have always agreed on the six-feather officer eagle rule, this one gave me reason to pause. I acquired it quite reasonably for my water police officer tunic, as the market for known officer eagles is quite limited. Ahem! I showed it to another collector friend and it gave him quite a pause. Six feathers? Well, it was the water police and they would seem to have more options in artistic license. Machine stitching holes around the perimeter and thread strands were a nice touch or actual remnants.

I think the only education you could expect is pictorial evidence Ernst? What was the regulation regarding the eagles? Were the feather numbers cited (I have forgotten) or are we going by standardized color drawings in the Taschenbuch and such?

The Panzer tunic looks vaguely familiar. Is there a difference in the tint of the green tab underlay and the piping?

[Ernst-H]

.....I think the only education you could expect is pictorial evidence Ernst? What was the regulation regarding the eagles? Were the feather numbers cited (I have forgotten) or are we going by standardized color drawings in the Taschenbuch and such?.....

Most "knowledge" in the field of Police Officer eagle collecting is based on the color drawings (Ruhl, Taschenbücher, etc) that clearly show 3-feather design. Next to that there is some collector "concensus" that the six-feather officers eagles are suspect.
I cannot remember having ever read a specification detailing the number of feathers....not for nco, not for officers....BUT--> The large RUHL color drawings (of which one is reproduced at true size and can be purchased at Bender) were officially sanctioned drawings that had the same power as a written regulation.

Indeed untill a period photograph shows up with a bullion six-feather officers eagle being clearly worn these eagles will remain suspect.

That said.....the various examples shown in this topic do look convincing....were it not for the 6 feathers....


Here is another example. Picture saved in jan2009

[JoeW]

Most "knowledge" in the field of Police Officer eagle collecting is based on the color drawings (Ruhl, Taschenbücher, etc) that clearly show 3-feather design. Next to that there is some collector "concensus" that the six-feather officers eagles are suspect.
I cannot remember having ever read a specification detailing the number of feathers....not for nco, not for officers....BUT--> The large RUHL color drawings (of which one is reproduced at true size and can be purchased at Bender) were officially sanctioned drawings that had the same power as a written regulation.

Indeed untill a period photograph shows up with a bullion six-feather officers eagle being clearly worn these eagles will remain suspect.

That said.....the various examples shown in this topic do look convincing....were it not for the 6 feathers....


Here is another example. Picture saved in jan2009

Ernst, now I am not saying this to "feather" my own nest, but I would take issue with the above highlighted comment. To my knowledge, the only official sanctioning was done with the Probe tags such as this one on on this Schwallbennest.

[catthomas8]

JoeW your gold eagle is the only six wing that I find to be credible, looking at this carefully I can see that it is actually a 3 wing that has had an extra wire inserted to divide the 3 wing, I like it very much, am I correct in this assumption? As seen in the picture below.

[JoeW]

I had not noticed the indentations before, but the wings are not actually made in three feather configuration and further subdivided into six. The wings consist of complete vertical rows of coiled bullion thread subdivided by the horizontal wrapped gold thread. There does seem to be indentation every two horizontal lines. The detail work is very interesting. Every two coils of each of the three inner feather/rows are separated by wrapped gold thread. And as I wrote, the reverse paper back shows nicely spaced sewing holes and some threads remnants. I shall continue to search for a photo of such an eagle that might have been ordered by one of the same group of officers who would continue to wear their naval dagger while serving with the Water Police.

[W.Unland]

Dear Joe,

I should clarify my above remark about never seeing a good 6 feather sleeve eagle EXCEPT yours! It slipped my mind as I put the WSP into a special category as you know. I was thinking silver eagle when I said that.


Back to the discussion of the tunic I have a few questions for those of you who have studied police "armor". Who exactly would have been the wearer? The guy is a career 1st Lt. not a war time brevet so he would have been a 20 year civil policeman, not necessarily a soldier. At the point in the war when this would have been used the SS-PO divisions were fully integrated into the W-SS so SS uniforms. This guy would have been a civil SchuPo officer.

Now I don't know, but I have been to understand that the armor allotted to the SchuPo were armored cars and a few foreign light tanks assigned to "normal" SchuPo commands, not large formations of vehicles. Consequently would it be reasonable for a career 1st Lt. to be a vehicle commander in such a case? Personally I see a career 1st Lt. as a station or command officer, not a vehicle commander. I hate to "over analyze" but this would have been much more convincing to me had it been an NCO tunic, but we know how impossible NCO panzer eagles are to find, so rebadging an officer's tunic would be easier. Does anyone have a photo of a Pol. Panzer OFFICER?

Just throwing it out for discussion. How many officers would have actually been in SchuPo, not combat pol., armor?

Perhaps I am just being overly suspicious about these Hyper-rare items showing up in perfect condition when even lowly fire department eagles are being expertly reproduced.

W.Unland

[Richard P]

Here is the only one I had handy. There are a few officers pictured in wraps in vol. 1 & 2 by Angolia & Taylor, I think, and there are a few officer photos in Regenberg's Ordnungspolizei book, but many are hard to tell as Police NCO boards resemble officer's boards at a distance. How about his M-43, wouldn't that be nice.

Richard