Shoulder board with toxic green underlay

[Don Bible]

Can anyone tell me if this shoulderboard is the rank for an SS Hauptscharführer in the SD? It appears to be the same as the shoulderboard for that rank shown in Volume 5 (SICHERHEITSDIENST UND SICHERHEITSPOLIZEI) by Andrew Mollo.
Underlay is toxic green but overlay is brown.
I have seen reference to a similar board for RAD.
Does the board appear to be an original. It came from the effects in the estate of an 82nd Airborne veteran from the Chicago area, mixed in with several badges and tinnies and Luftwaffe bullion insignia, but we all know that association with original pieces does not necessarily make another item original.
I am not a cloth knowledgeable person. any help will be appreciated.

[Don Bible]

underlay side

[SiPo]

Don,

Due to the brown colour, I would say this is a Schupo board as opposed to SiPo und SD.

G

[Dave C.]

Hi Don, I would agree with Graham's comments above. Below is a thread link for some SD insignia posted a while back with comparison to Schupo. See post #15 and onwards


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ight=sd+straps

[JoeW]

I would be curious to know where the term "toxic green" began when used to describe the insignia of the Sicherheitspolizei and SD. All period references I have in my files refer to the combination as (translated) green or police green, with black.

[Don Bible]

Joe, I got the term from Andrew Mollo's book mentioned in the beginning of the thread. Hope to see you the end of this week.
Don

[Don Bible]

Graham and Dave,
Thanks for the opinion on the shoulder board being Schupo. Since no one mentioned any doubt about authenticity, can I safely assume that the board is original?
These two pieces were pinned together as if they belonged to the same origin. Is the second piece (?shoulder cord?) also Schupo?
Thanks again for any help.
Don Bible

[JoeW]

Don, the cord is an officer chin strap for a visor cap that would be inappropriate for an NCO rank. Unless, the Hauptwachtmeister was also a Junker (officer candidate), in which case he could wear the cords.

[Don Bible]

Thanks Joe,
The quality of both the shoulder board and the chin cords is very nice. I didn't realize that Shupo and SD-SiPo used the same pattern shoulder boards. The police green (toxic green") of the underlay of the shoulder board extends around the outside edge enough to give the board a green piping all around.
Don

[JoeW]

That is what it was intended to do. The design is Polizei, but the Black on the center cords makes it Sicherheits-. That differentiated the Schupo from the SIPO. But on officer boards, there were no center cords, so they used the Nebenfarbe (secondary color) of Black to designate an officer of the SIPO.

[SiPo]

Don,

When the SD/SiPo started wearing field grey uniform around 1938 this was worn with black & white piped Allgemeine SS style insignia. In mid 1940, the SD/SiPo were authorized to wear the SS/Wehrmacht style shoulder boards with police green piping.

However, this did not go down too well with the SS themselves and after complaining to Himmler, the boards style was changed at the beginning of 1942 to that of a police style except executed in black as Joe has stated. Also at this time, the black/white piping and the use of collar tress for NCO's was to be discontinued.

There does appear to be a transition period and you quite often see a mix of insignia. There are even instances at the beginning of the war were you see the wearing of B/W piped SS-VT style shoulder boards.

There are also instances were you see a blatant disregard for the regulations late on in the war with some old 'salts' still wearing B/W piping with police style boards.

Please see post #12 in the following thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=sipo

In this pic, the chap in the driving seat wears the correct style insignia for 1938. However, the chap in the rear seat wears B/W piped collar & tabs and NCO's collar tress but with SS style white piped shoulder boards, not SS-VT and yet this photo was taken Sep. '39 approx. 8 months prior to the authorization of the wearing of SS style boards.

Please see post #86 in the following thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=portrait

In this pic, you see the correct configuration of insignia as of the 1942 orders i.e B/W piping and collar tress discontinued and police style boards worn.

Please see post #1 in the following thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=sipo

In this pic, you see a disregard of Himmler's orders in that the B/W piping is still being worn alongside police style boards in 1944.

Don, I am far, far from being an authority on SD/Sipo uniforms and insignia and the information given above is my interpretation of a quite complex subject. I am sure there are much more knowledgeable guys on this forum that can correct me if I am wrong.

Regards,
Graham

[Don Bible]

Graham, thank you for taking time to give this very detailed explaination of how the police boards came to be used and when, and also for pointing out the disregard of regulations.

My study of the German police has always been pretty much confined to the Gestapo-Kripo ID cards and warrant discs. I have never taken time to expand much from there and my knowledge of police uniforms and insignia is woefully lacking.

In fact I never became interested in police uniforms at all until I was given a few pictures of Erich Goerke by his widow and son a few years ago. One of those pictures is an excellent shot of him in uniform wearing the collar tabs of an SS-SD Scharführer, however only his collar tabs are visible in the picture. His right shoulder board can be partly seen, but not enough for me to identify it. The picture is on page 1 of my last book "GESTAPO IDENTIFICATION CREDENTIALS."

The only other pictures of him in uniform are the one on page 14 of the same book, with Goerke standing with his young daughter in front of the old bahnhof, and the one of him on page 8 at the police school at Pretzsch/ Elbe. In the bahnhof picture the shoulder boards are pretty visible, especially the right one. Also his shoulder eagle and SD diamond are visible under magnification.

In the police school photo, several Grenzpolizei cuff titles are visible on men in the group. Have you ever looked at those under a glass?

[SiPo]

Don,

I have looked at Goerke's 'school' pic using a loupe but it still remains too unclear to be absolutely certain of what style of insignia is being worn. However, I believe they are wearing the correct style for 1942, and being as this was a training establishment, I would certainly expect them to be setting the correct example and following Himmler's orders to the letter.

With regard to the pic with his daughter in late '42, which by the way is a wonderful shot, he is now an NCO without tresse and B/W piping as per regulations. Unfortunately, the shoulder boards are unclear and may be either police or SS style.

However, the pic on page 1 & 15 see's him promoted again to Scharfuhrer but this time he is going against regulations by wearing collar tresse and SS style shoulder boards.

With these uniform regulations, it is apparent that not everyone followed Himmler's orders to the letter. A bit similar to the disregard of the 'melt-down' order regarding the Prussian Kripo discs!

Graham

[Don Bible]

Graham, thanks again for looking at those photos and for your comments. Through the help of friends who have considerable knowledge of SS cloth, I have tried to assemble a few of the items that Goerke would have worn, and I hope all of these are originals. I tried my best to get original pieces to display with the Goerke pieces.

Although Erich Goerke managed to preserve all of his Gestapo identification and his SS issued weapon, none of his uniform pieces are thought to have survived. His son has looked in all the places that he thinks they might have been hidden, without finding anything except his damaged SS dagger. It was used during the war to pry apart wooden shipping crates, resulting in quite a bit of blade damage.

[JoeW]

Graham, the Wehrmacht style boards were first worn with green piping, but that did not work, so in August 1941, the RSHA tried to add black underlay to those boards. That plan was apparently a quick dismal failure and the Wehrmacht style boards were replaced with the police boards of green and black.