Sicherheitsdienst Sturmscharfuehrer

[SMV]

Hello,

I've had this portrait for several years and thought some of you might like it too. It is a nice size, 6.5"x8.5" and I like that the guy is wearing Polizei style shoulderboards. Notice too that he is wearing a sweater vest under his tunic.

Regards,

Marcus

[Dave C.]

Marcus, great photo! Dated too at the lower left! Wouldn't it be great to find that tunic, with visor of course!!! I bet our resident SD collector, GHanson will really like this picture!

[Mike Davis]

Lovely image!

[SiPo]

Marcus, great photo! Dated too at the lower left! Wouldn't it be great to find that tunic, with visor of course!!! I bet our resident SD collector, GHanson will really like this picture!

Dave...I most certainly do!

Marcus, superb picture...you have made my day!!

[lbsr]

Great photo, really!!
B/W piped collar tabs are amazing (1944!) - normally discontinued at early war!!!
Once more - GREAT PHOTO - thnx for sharing!!!

[SMV]

Dave,


Thank you for the nice compliment, I thought I remember you liking this one. ;>)
I know what you mean, that would be the pride of any TR Polizei collector, though I'm sure the funds for such a uniform would be in the five figures, and so probably never make it into my humble little collection.
I know that some complete SD nco uniforms have survived the war, but there must be only a handfull. This of all uniforms would have been sought out by the Allies, so just like KZ pass books, SD uniforms would have been modified at the least, and most completely destroyed. I would not touch any SD uniform that did not have excellent provenance.

Mike, Graham and Jiri, thank you!

Graham I had a feeling you might like this one.
This fellow looks like he could get really ugly if needed, a hard core SD man for sure. Man, I wish I knew his name, I would love to research this fellow.
The photo looks as though it was hastily removed from a album or frame.
It was glued to a piece of chip board, but a bet his name is written on the back, I wonder if there is some infrared technology that might pick up any ink on the back.

Jiri, I thought the b/w piped tabs were a bit dated at this time in the war.
He is wearing no medal bar or ribbons, so perhaps he did not see any combat during the war, and wore the same tunic without promotion untill at least 1944.

Shortly after I acquired the pic, a good friend and fellow collector sent me a sample of the shoulder board shown above. Thanks again my friend!

The SD shoulder boards were just like those of Schutzpolizei, but black braid where Schupo's were dark brown.

[SCHUPO]

This fellow is a Meister in the SIPO. As the highest ranking NCO he would not be promoted further within his pay range and probably finished the war at this top Unteroffizier mit Portepee rank. Since he was authorized to wear an Officer Portepee and Officer cords on his cap I would not be too surprised at him continuing to wear his piped collar tabs to show he was an old timer. He is also not afraid of anyone telling him not to wear his sweater. Who would dare to tell him not to? Smart officers left these Master Sergeants alone to run the troops as they saw fit.

[SMV]

Hi Schupo, and thank you for your comment. I believe you are probably correct in your anaysis and I certainly do not argue with your expertise,
you have many more years collecting than I. I do know that this fellow
probably tapped out at this most Senior NCO level and not promoted
any higher ranks.

However, how can one tell if this fellow was SD or Sipo without seeing the rest of his uniform, ie. cuffband or sleeve raute?
Did the wearing of Polizei shoulder boards always indicate Sipo membership ONLY or could a full SD member serving with Sipo wear them too?

Did Sipo member use SS or Polizei ranks? I am really not sure one way or
another. The reason I thought this guy was SD instead of Sipo only,
was because of the lack of a ribbon bar with at least the War Merit Cross -
Police long service medal. The guy does have a severe look about him,
but I also thought his vest gave him an academic look as well and
coupled with the old style collar tabs and jacket, probably a full SD member.

I know that the closeness between the SD and Sipo under RSHA can be
a gray area and Himmler purposely tried to blur the lines, so perhaps
there is no way, short of knowing the man's name and doing so research,
can one tell whether or not he was "full SD" Please correct me if I am
wrong.


Best Regards,

Marcus

[wewelsburg]

there is no reasson why this guy couldnt be SD if there is its new to me,also sd uniforms arent THat incredibly expensive ive seen a stripped nice one on the estand for around 4500

[SiPo]

The reason I thought this guy was SD instead of Sipo only,
was because of the lack of a ribbon bar with at least the War Merit Cross -
Police long service medal. The guy does have a severe look about him,
but I also thought his vest gave him an academic look as well and
coupled with the old style collar tabs and jacket, probably a full SD member.

Hi Marcus,

I can certainly see were you are coming from with your reasonings, and you are right that we probably won't know unless the chap is identified.

Personally, when I find shots like this I usually class them as SiPo as opposed to SD. This is purely down to the amount of personnel, as there were more members of the SiPo(Gestapo & Kripo) than there were SD.

Also, the jumper underneath his clothing might even be a clue. It is quite possible that he could be a 'plain clothed' member of the SiPo, who has slipped his uniform over the top for an 'official' or 'unofficial' uniform shot. If he was plain clothes SiPo who did not need to wear his uniform too often, this may explain why he is wearing obsolete piping this late on.

With regards to the ribbons, a member of the SD is more likely to have a KvK ribbon than most members of the SiPo, but this is assumption on my part and again drawn from the amount of personnel. Due to the lower numbers of SD, the turn-around for frontline service, would have been sooner than that of any SiPo member. However, the chap in question may very well have ribbons and other decorations that we unfortunately can't see.

Regards,
Graham

[SCHUPO]

Hi Schupo, and thank you for your comment. I believe you are probably correct in your anaysis and I certainly do not argue with your expertise,
you have many more years collecting than I. I do know that this fellow
probably tapped out at this most Senior NCO level and not promoted
any higher ranks.

However, how can one tell if this fellow was SD or Sipo without seeing the rest of his uniform, ie. cuffband or sleeve raute?
Did the wearing of Polizei shoulder boards always indicate Sipo membership ONLY or could a full SD member serving with Sipo wear them too?

Did Sipo member use SS or Polizei ranks? I am really not sure one way or
another. The reason I thought this guy was SD instead of Sipo only,
was because of the lack of a ribbon bar with at least the War Merit Cross -
Police long service medal. The guy does have a severe look about him,
but I also thought his vest gave him an academic look as well and
coupled with the old style collar tabs and jacket, probably a full SD member.

I know that the closeness between the SD and Sipo under RSHA can be
a gray area and Himmler purposely tried to blur the lines, so perhaps
there is no way, short of knowing the man's name and doing so research,
can one tell whether or not he was "full SD" Please correct me if I am
wrong.


Best Regards,

Marcus

Marcus,

You really do ask a good question. I, like Graham, generally tend to call photos like this SIPO men. Just as the Schupo, Gendarmerie, LSP, etc were part of the larger ORPO, SD, Gestapo, Kripo, etc were part of the SIPO. So, it is a more generic term. If I had to guess, I would say this fellow was "most probably" SD since he is wearing his old salt & pepper Allg-SS style collar tabs. But that is only a guess.

The Sicherheitspolizei (SIPO) had essentially two styles of uniforms. The stone grey uniform shown above that was cut like the black Allg-SS tunic and a stone grey uniform that was cut like the green Polizei uniform. The first one is confusing because it was worn by SD, Gestapo, etc without regard to their specific service. The other uniform is not so confusing because it has SS style insignia (except for later shoulder boards) instead of police collar tabs, eagles, sleevebands, and SD Raute. Of course the cloth color is immediately recognizable in hand but impossible to tell in a B/W photograph.

For instance, there is a book by Dr. Karl Schäfer titled, "20 Jahre im Polizei Dienst (1925-1945)" published in 1977. Schäfer was a Gestapo man and was never in the SD. However, photos of him in uniform show him wearing this same open collar four button uniform. He wears a blank collar tab, Captain's rank and an aluminum piped SD diamond and a blank cuff band. He also wears a police long service medal as he was in the Gestapo. But you might think he was in the SD if you did not know who he was.

George

[Robin Lumsden]

Just another semi-associated pic from the BA.....................no doubt SD in this case.

[SCHUPO]

Yes, these are no doubt SD men wearing the old style collar tabs and shoulder boards that were made obsolete after January 1942. Of course the wear of old style insignia was still a problem after this date because of wear out provisions and the reluctance of old timers to give up their old insignia.

[HPL2008]

An interesting image as it shows the transitional period when Allgemeine-SS rank insignia were replaced by military-style ones. (which would in turn be replaced by the police style)
Notice the Rottenführer in the driver's seat is still wearing the Allgemeine-SS style shoulder cords while the two Oberscharführer already have adopted military-style shoulder straps.

[Robin Lumsden]

The cheerful chaps in the car were part of an Einsatzkommando in Poland.