OT Rank patches

[jani_tiainen]

Hello,

Attached two pictures of my OT-patches.

I have difficulties finding any good reference so I need ask a stupid question.

What are the ranks of these insignia. OT-rank system seems to be quite difficult...

Cheers,
Jani

[jani_tiainen]

Any good reference (web or printed) you know?

Jani

[DougO]

Jani : There is some info on these in the book by Brain Davis " Badges&Insignia of the Third Reich " on Plate 55 , but they do "match" yours exactly --but very similar . Here a collar tab I just got to go with your rank sleeve insignia . Bernd

[jani_tiainen]

Thanks for showing!

Surprisingly Wikipedia has almost the best reference I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt

The only problem is that they dont show the ones I have and there are so many.

(I got these patches and some for trade and have not collected them, but this whole research makes them look quite interesting - and I guess they must be rare since I remember seeing one for sale during last weeks.)

Administrative and working ranks are:

• Chef der OT
• OT-Einsatzgruppenleiter I
• OT-Einsatzgruppenleiter II
• OT-Einsatzleiter
• OT-Hauptbauleiter
• OT-Bauleiter
• OT-Hauptbauführer
• OT-Oberbauführer
• OT-Bauführer
• OT-Haupttruppführer
• OT-Obertruppführer
• OT-Truppführer
• OT-Oberstfrontführer
• OT-Oberstabsfrontführer
• OT-Stabsfrontführer
• OT-Oberfrontführer
• OT-Frontführer
• OT-Obermeister
• OT-Obermeister
• OT-Meister
• OT-Vorarbeiter
• OT-Stammarbeiter
• OT-Arbeiter

But then there are other ranks for what? Also I have book that was mentioed: David: Badges and insignia of third reich and they show similar as mine but with blue stripes instead of red...

After some comparison; I guess my first is OT-Vorarbeiter
Then numbered one #4 is OT-Meister

The ones 1-3 that looks like lower ranks... there are only two lower rank but I have three different ones "under" vorarbeiter (???)

Davis' book mentions The OT-Vorarbeiter same as OT-Stammsnitarer...(Blue stripes????) so there seems to be at least two different categories among ranks: Sanitätswesen and Verwaltung, Frontführung etc...

What is the difference? What mine are?



Jani

[NickG]

Here is some info Jani from Angolia's and Schlicht's book (Army Vol.2).
I am not sure if these were ever worn (issued) as I have never found period pictures of these rank insignia in wear...Most likely intended for work uniforms like coveralls or similar fatigue wear garments.

[jani_tiainen]

Here is some info Jani from Angolia's and Schlicht's book (Army Vol.2).
I am not sure if these were ever worn (issued) as I have never found period pictures of these rank insignia in wear...Most likely intended for work uniforms like coveralls or similar fatigue wear garments.

Thanks Nick,

That explains why the information is so hard to find.

Jani

[NickG]

some of mine

here are some of mine!

[jani_tiainen]

here are some of mine!

Nice collection! I will post rest of mine later tonight.

Zeige has for of these patches I were researching for sale but he only descripes (All different ones) :

"Org. Todt Ärmelabzeichen für Unterführer maschinengestickte Ausführung, um 1943. Ungetragen, selten."

//Jani

[jani_tiainen]

Here are rest of my OT-items.

These are sligtly easier to identify. Only one is BeVo (#6).

It would be nice to see more OT-cloth collections!

Jani

[NickG]

OT diamonds

I have never seen pictures of the rank patches being worn on the sleeve...but the OT collar diamonds were for some reason sometimes also worn on the sleeve !
Here both on the collars and sleeve (much clearer in original image...which I borrowed from fellow Waf member W.Petz, no problem right Bill? )
Not sure if this is an official practice or here worn in lieu of the OT arm band? These are OT schutzkommando troops (armed job site security), as they wear shoulderboards for that branch.

[NickG]

Ot

Another OT man with collar diamonds on the great coat

[NickG]

mannequin

similar!

[Gregory Koepp]

The first set of cloth patches with OT and the rank lines under it are still really unknown, BUT I do know the SS were assigned to all Org Todt Units. So after reading and searching many, many places "I" feel the SS within the Org. Todt came up with this Ranking for their men assigned to the O.T. Unit's. The SS were deep into the Todt Organisation and if you compare this patch to the SS rank patch they used, it's very similar to it, now I have no proof of this but I have been researching and the only sensible use would be the SS adopted the same patch design with slight changes for use in the O.T.

Org Todt was the only Paramilitary Unit in the German Military to have and do "almost" what they wanted, from their ranking to Uniform designs. The O.T. was given a wide range for expansion due to the Forced workers and Volunteers from many Countries. If you look you'll see no other German Fighting force was so unknown!

So "I" have came to the expert opinion that the square O.T. rank patch was for the SS within the OT Unit's. Sure no photos to back it up, but there's ton's of proof the SS were a huge part of the O.T.


greg koepp

[jani_tiainen]

Thanks for your input! That is really interesting.

Most likely these square ones were never in use or there are number of unissued ones (Like mine).

I wonder where and when these popped up (?)

Jani

[NickG]

The first set of cloth patches with OT and the rank lines under it are still really unknown, BUT I do know the SS were assigned to all Org Todt Units. So after reading and searching many, many places "I" feel the SS within the Org. Todt came up with this Ranking for their men assigned to the O.T. Unit's. The SS were deep into the Todt Organisation and if you compare this patch to the SS rank patch they used, it's very similar to it, now I have no proof of this but I have been researching and the only sensible use would be the SS adopted the same patch design with slight changes for use in the O.T.

Org Todt was the only Paramilitary Unit in the German Military to have and do "almost" what they wanted, from their ranking to Uniform designs. The O.T. was given a wide range for expansion due to the Forced workers and Volunteers from many Countries. If you look you'll see no other German Fighting force was so unknown!

So "I" have came to the expert opinion that the square O.T. rank patch was for the SS within the OT Unit's. Sure no photos to back it up, but there's ton's of proof the SS were a huge part of the O.T.


greg koepp

Sorry Greg but I don't buy that explanation that these square rank patches were intended for SS men, while on duty with OT!

Indeed SS troops were involved with job security at sensitive OT job sites (like V1 and V2 rocket installation building projects) and for lesser sensitive sites OT deployed its own "SchutzKommando" troops (armed OT security Guards). These SS guards wore regular SS uniforms.

SS members however assigned to OT as you put it and wearing OT uniforms would have this unique special rank system with bars (in the SS fashion as you state) for their troops to wear? while in OT service is unlikely...
It would make more sense for them to wear SS flashes on the uniform, just like Polizei men did (who were also SS members)
Your theory because it looks like "SS rank bars its linked to SS" is a stretch...! BTW the SS rank bars ( intended for camo clothing) is actually a Heer (army) system which the SS adopted! So not at all a unique SS invention. Actually even the LW had their rank bar system too (for flight clothing!)

These OT rank patches on the other hand were clearly designed for OT members with no special status or other branch affiliation and most likely designed for fatigue/work uniforms and just never or rarely ever issued... (based on the lack of photographic evidence so far).

So with that said I respectfully disagree.These are plain OT rank patches with no affiliation to the SS whatsoever... and if your theory was true, these patches are for work uniforms, so ask yourself this question: would an SS member (with special status wearing a special rank bar) pick up a shovel????

Nick