Info on Gestapo ID number wanted

[Don Bible]

Thank you for your interest. The book may be ordered directly from me at:

Don Bible
3175 Fish Hatchery Road
Mohawk, TN 37810

Prepaid cost by Priority Mail is $35. Personal check is OK.
Thanks,
Don Bible

[Don Bible]

Dave, did you receive the PM I sent you yesterday, concerning the ordering of the book?

[DickH]

One morte question to Don Bible, if I may

Did police/gestapo agents always wear their discs on a chain or are there examples of discs worn on some kind of cord or leather string?

Regards,

DickH

[Don Bible]

The Rund Erlass issued by the Prussian Interior Minister, dated 17.1.34 pertaining to the warrant disc of the Staatliche and Gemeinde Kriminal Beamten, stated that the warrant disc (then called an Erkennungsmarke...later changed to Dienstmarke) was to be carried " an einer Kette oder an einem starken Band in der Tasche zu trage." (on a chain or a strong cord [string] and carried in the pocket).
I have never found any change to that order in later archived materials. To the best of my knowledge the order is still adhered to today. Once several years ago, when I was privileged to attend a gathering of a large number of German Kripo and Zoll officers, I was given permission to ask each officer his method of carry for his Dienstmarke. I saw them carried on chains, keyrings, loose in a billfold compartment...and one officer carried his in his tobacco pouch. He was a pipe smoker. I think that the important factor was not to lose the disc...wherever it was carried.

[Wizard]

Hello Mr. Bible,
I have a stupid question regarding the gestapo disc that's in the SHAEF manual. Can you speculate why the British agents would need to cut the disc in order to figure out what it is made from? I mean, as long as it looks the same, who is going to look that close for details?

Did you ever find out what happened to that counterfeit disc the gestapo agent used to escape?

Thanks.

[Don Bible]

I believe that the file cuts that were later made on the disc shown in the SHAEF manual were made at the time the British produced the counterfeit disc for the escape of Hans Bernd Gisevius, after the abortive plot to kill Hitler. Gisevius had been in hiding in Berlin for over four months, trying to evade the Gestapo.

At that time the Gestapo warrant disc was a real enigma to Allied intelligence. There were all sorts of rumors about each disc having a small secret flaw that could only be detected by another Gestapo agent, and other mythical qualities attached to the disc.

In all probability the disc number 8455 (shown in the SHAEF manual) was the ONLY disc in the possession of Allied intelligence. I think the file cuts and other damaging tests performed on the disc, were made in an attempt to see that nothing was being overlooked in producing the fake disc for Gisevius, as they knew any slip-up would mean instant death for double agent Gisevius. The ruse proved to be successful. Gisevius walked out of Germany into Switzerland at a small town on Lake Constance on a cold January morning in 1945....still wearing the same summer weight suit that he had worn since the abortive plot to kill Hitler in July, 1944.

The fake disc made for Gisevius with which he escaped, was last known to be in the possession of a Washington, D.C. lawyer from the American midwest, who had been recruited by the OSS to work for Allen Dulles in Berne.

The lawyer was assigned by Dulles to help carry out the Gisevius escape plot. After it succeded, Gisevius gave the counterfeit disc to the lawyer as a token of his appreciation. That lawyer is now deceased, and I could never locate any trace of the disc after his death. He was unmarried.

[Wizard]

Thank you for that info, Mr. Bible.

Would you know if there was anything about gestapo agent 8455's ID card in the SHAEF manual? Wouldn't the British have to make one too for Gisevius?

Could you also speculate why the British used #8486 for Gisevius' counterfeit disc? Weren't they afraid that #8486 could be traced to another active agent?

Thank you.

[Don Bible]

There is nothing in the SHAEF manual about that card, but British Intelligence did produce a counterfeit matching card for the disc. An SOS operative contacted the mother of Hans Bernd Gisevius and obtained a full length photo of him, which was reworked by MI 6 to a bust type photo, which was used on the fake card (Dienstausweis).

Anyone wanting to read about the operation can find accounts of it in at least three books. They are "MI 6" by Nigel West, "To The Bitter End" by Hans Bernd Gisevius, and "From Hitler's Doorstep" The Wartime Intelligence Reports of Allen Dulles 1942-1945, Edited with Commentary by Neal H. Petersen.

You are right that a certain amount of risk was taken in coming up with a number for the fake ID card, as it could have been checked, however that was a calculated risk that had to be taken. It was hoped that if the Gestapo warrant disc and card passed the visual test, that the number would not be checked, The gamble paid off

The sleepy border guard and Gestapo agent at the border crossing at Kreuzling, looked at the disheveled man on foot who approached the border, took one look at his "official" Gestapo identification, and waved him through...thinking he was a Gestapo agent in disguise crossing into neutral Switzerland. Gisevius must have breathed a hugh sigh of relief!

[Don Bible]

There has been a request that my website url on Third Reich era original warrant discs, and fakes be posted again. The old url became obsolete a couple of years ago when I changed to a cable ISP. The new url is http://users.adelphia.net/~donbible/
Thanks

[VIPER]

All of Dons books are quite good and very informative. The photography is very good as well. Anyone contemplating purchase of these rare pieces of Third Reich history would do well to purchase as many of Dons books as possible. I have Disc #5521, formerly owned by him........... Don, How many doccumented ones are there in existance today and is there a listing of Gestapo Ranks and their equivalants. ...........Thanks Jimmy

[Don Bible]

Jimmy, thanks for the kind words about the books. I am glad you found them useful. I have tried to make them informative to collectors.

Your Gestapo disc # 5521, is certainly a disc to be proud of in any collection. I remember it well.

Any estimate of the number of original Gestapo warrant discs still surviving, would be a semi-educated guess at best. I have personally owned more than twenty Gestapo discs that I considered to be unquestionable originals. The numbers ranged from #264 thru #16413. I have examined about twice that many more for other persons. In addition, I have probably seen close to forty others by means of high quality photographs or scans that I believed to be original but that I did not actually handle.

None of those were reported or recorded by me. Those discs were from places where a hands-on examination was not possible or feasible, due to the high cost of secure shipping from distant locations, or anticipated problems with customs authorities upon return to their owners, or were owned by persons who had no desire to have them made known.

Based on these estimates, it would seem that somewhere around one hundred examples known, would be a reasonable figure to use. As written here earlier, only two of those known to me, have matching ID cards.

The Gestapo ID cards themselves are much rarer than the discs. Probably less than twenty-five examples are known.

Now and then, a previously unknown Gestapo disc will appear, or even the ultra-rare ID card, as one did in Germany, in the past few months.

There is a listing of Gestapo ranks and their equalivants, which I will try to dig out and post here at a later time.

[Don Bible]

Jimmy, as promised, here are the Gestapo-Kripo ranks with the approximate U.S. Army equivalants.

GESTAPO-KRIPO U.S. ARMY approximate equivalants

Kriminalassistentanwärter Corporal
Kriminalassistent Staff Sgt.
Kriminaloberassistent Sgt. Major
Kriminalsekretär Regimental Sgt. Major
Kriminalobersekretär 2nd Lt.
Kriminalinspektor 1st Lt.
Kriminalkommissar Capt.
Kriminalrat Major
Oberregierungs-und Kriminalrat Lt. Col.
Regierungs-und Kriminaldirektor Col.

[VIPER]

Don, Thanks for the table of ranks...................One other question...When these guys wore uniform did they not wear SS/SD uniform with SS rank on the collar or did they wear Poleizi uniform. Another question comes to mind with the guru of IDs here, Were foreign auxilliarys also holders of ID disks or only German nationals on assighnment in the occupied countrys holders of the dreaded warrant disks. Also was there a rank requirement to carry the disk or did all ranks from NCOs on up to Heydrich carry them. Gee, wonder if Heydrichs was No 1.....................Thanks Jimmy

[Don Bible]

I do not pretend to know anything about uniforms, but based on my observations of photographs of the two Gestapo officers that carried the two known sets of matching Gestapo credentials, I think they wore SS/SD uniforms. Both Franz Glatz and Erich Goerke are shown in SS uniforms in their files from the Berlin Document Center. Both men were the same rank (Kriminalassistent). Both men are wearing civilian clothes in their ID card (Dienstausweis) photos.

In addition, the family of Erich Goerke gave me an original photo of him wearing SS rank about 1942....two years after he had been assigned to the Gestapo in Münster / Westfalen. In his Wehrpass, Goerke carried a small photo showing his Polizeischule class, probably at Pretsch / Elbe. In that photo, he is wearing a GRENZPOLIZEI cuff title on his uniform, as are all the others in the class.

I have never seen evidence of a non-German national carrying Gestapo credentials, but I have seen considerable evidence of German citizens serving with the Gestapo in occupied countries.

I don't think there was a rank requirment for carrying a Gestapo warrant disc and ID card. I think all operative personnel of the Gestapo carried the warrant disc and ID card. Clerical, or other desk-bound Gestapo personnel such as communications or technical jobs, were required to carry a DIFFERENT ID card that did not have an accompanying warrant disc. Those cards were used for identification for entry into the building, or other areas, where the worker was assigned.

I wouldn't hazard a guess as to who carried Gestapo card and disc # 1 !

[VIPER]

Thanks so much Don for answering a few of my questions. Most books on the Gestapo that I have do not really go into the nuts and bolts of its daily operations.............Best Always Jimmy