HJ Ski Badge....maybe??

[Ken1967]

I had a wild hair at one of the shows this year and purchased an HJ badge I know NOTHING about! The construction quality looked good (to me anyway). But now that it has sat in my collection for a little while, it's time to post it for evaluation. Hopefully, I'll not have to add another item to the repo/fake box ...

Thoughts on this one?

Ken

[Ken1967]

back of the pin....

[Duzig]

Hello Ken,
I also have one of these badges & as far as I am concerned the word is still out on whether these are original or not. I also feel they are a well made,sharp looking badge. I do know that there was a tinnie made for this event,but from what I have read on the various forums,the word is still out on them at this point. More knowledgable members may have different information and I would like to hear that too. I believe this badge and the so called deutsches rotes Kreuz alpine rettungdienst badges are in question. I would like to hear any info regarding these items also.
Duzig

[WARLORD]

The HJ Skie badge as shown and deutsches rotes Kreuz alpine rettungdienst badges were faked in the late 1980's. They have caused concerns because they are so well made. Other pieces from the same stable are the oval Red Cross sisters badges and the oval NSKK Flug badges. These also are extreemly well made. One give away is the type of enamel employed. It is a modern form and dose not have the finnish or colour of the original.

[DanCz]

I agree with Warlord - - altho they first appeared in the early to mid 1980's here in England. You could buy them im either "mint" or "aged" condition and if my memory serves me well they originated from Austria. The whole series have caused collectors major headaches over the years !!

A badge for reference housed in your "Black Museum"

[Duzig]

Hello again,
Warlord and Dan I thank you both for your answers regarding these items. I'm glad to have these items definitively identified as bogus. Were there any originals of these items or are they complete fantasy pieces? Again thanks for your information
Duzig(Bill)

[WARLORD]

Both pieces are fantersy. Good to have as they show how things are currently produced.

[railhouse]

hj

in reinhard tieste katalogof of tinnies are this tinnie with in gold silver and bronze and one in only metal

[Ken1967]

Thanks everyone! I can't say I'm happy about the news though....

But everyone gets burned at some time. I appreciate the information on the badge. It is definately one of those that can confuse you since the quality of the construction is so good.

Ken

[gebirgaussie]

There are two more of these badges which were probably from the same series. One is HJ Hochland Lager enamel badge (still see this one getting sold as a "genuine" item on ebay and epier at times). The other is an Olympic Games edelweiss enamel badge which has some crazy writing on it (translates as something like "all the churches combine"). It too can still be found on many sites on the net, often being sold for hundreds of dollars as a "rare badge". In many ways, these fantasy items are worse than repro items. At least if you buy a repro as a repro, you know it represented something real. But a fantasy item represents nothing more than the imagination of the person who designed it. Admittedly they are nice badges.

[Matt Gibbs]

I guess this goes along with the lesson that not everything that looks good and sharp with tight rivets and plausibel look really is genuine. We are dealing with fakers who now use 21st century technology.
Regards
MG

[Ken1967]

I keep thinking about the quality of the fakes that are being produced and the skepticism I had for most items at any show I attend (especially after being burned). I know many of us attend shows to browse the items, but when it comes time to buy, there are only a few dealers I feel comfortable with (and I can buy from their web sites).

The last two shows I have attended, I only bought a couple of small items. It's almost not worth the drive just to buy a canteen and a couple of postcards. Where is the future of these shows when it reaches a point when most of the items are fakes and no one is willing to spend the time or money to attend?

It seems as if the dealers themselves are causing the collapse. They complain about the low attendance at shows, but yet see all the other dealers selling the fakes and disheartening collectors. I know there is no answer readily available for this, but I have talked with several collectors that are leaving the hobby because they are tired of "all the lies".

Oh well, I still love the hobby and have doubled my efforts to educate myself on items and avoid spontaneous purchases. Thanks to all of you for your efforts to "share the wealth" of your knowledge and experience. It's the one of the few ways we have to ensure our success!

[DocumentsGuy]

I'd like to ask a couple of questions about the reverse of this badge for my own education.

First, the rivets look odd to me. I've seen many different types of rivets used on badges but not this type. How common are these type of rivets?

Second, the maker's mark "H & Co." I presume the "Co." stands for Company. The Germans have many different abbreviations for "Company" but I didn't know that "Co." was one of them. Also, was H & Co. a well-known badge-making firm?

[James Noble]

Ken,
IM not saying your badge is real or a reproduction but it is based on a real design like railhouse says Reinhard Tieste does show this item as a tinnie which it may very possibly be. Just because it is well made and has enamel incorporated into it doesn't mean it's a nothing more then a Day-badge also there is a firm by the name of Hymmen & Co., Lüdenscheid listed under M9/166 who may be the H.& Co on your badge. And to answer Bruce's question about the use of Co. there are at lest twenty firms listed with & Co. after their name in the RZM code M9 list.

[gebirgaussie]

After reading James' comments, I feel I may have been a bit hasty to jump on the "all is fake if unknown" bandwagon.
The Third Reich was indeed vast and I sometimes come across odd cloth edelweiss patches, most of which were private purchases, which vary enormously. There are also a lot of variants of other common military badges, such as the metal cap edelweiss. Such variants are due to different companies using slightly different presses. They are all still well within what would have been regulation guidelines, but the variations are very subtle. We should not automatically dismiss such variants as fakes.
I have wondered about some of these enamel badges. I am sure that the vast majority are fakes, but the question remains, were they based on something that was real? And if so, what do the real ones look like. Furthermore, we need to see period photographs to prove that they existed during the Reich. A number of badges that were first dismissed as fakes were later found to be real items after the discovery of period photographs showed them being worn. A good example is an SS sniper's badge, once thought to be fake, but now known to be a very rare original. The problem then comes about when original items have been reproduced and continued and in many cases added to. The HJ Hochland Lager badge is a good example of this, as it has been reproduced in a great variety of colours. If ever there was an original of this badge, it would most likely have been just a plain copper, perhaps with painted lettering or some enamel on the highlights. When people go looking for the Holy Grail, they often seek out the cups that look spectacular and shiny and gilt, but they disregard the dull plain one that is real.
Ian