The H'O'CH (hoch) "Paul Newman" SS poster

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

it seemed that the search engine is still not working properly, so i'm making a new topic on the famous H'O'CH (hoch) "Paul Newman" SS poster.

Please find below the 6 identified variations, the last three ones are the fake/repro ones.

This poster was NOT made especially for France.
But the blank prototype and the "Nancy" variations seemed to have been exclusive to France. Their sizes is BIGGER than the original blank models.

The original blank H'O'CH model is quite common, but i was unable to find pictures of this poster in use in Europe. Stocks of this posters were recently found in various locations.

I was able to handle all those variations, with the exception of the "prototype" model that is only shown on the wall of the Ersatzkommando Frankreich der Waffen-SS in a picture taken in late 1943-early 1944.

Only one copy of the "Nancy" model is known, no copy of the blank prototype is known.

The fake #1 "Paris" flooded the market at the end of the 70's and in the early 80's (i need to work on that one). It copied the original "Nancy" poster published in Jean Mabire's book "La Brigade Frankreich" in 1973.
The problem is that the original "Nancy" poster was bigger than the balank model, which explains the "smaller" text on the Paris model.
The size is smaller than the original blank model, and the paper is reacting to UV light. The print quality is not that good, and it is using a very poor/dark paper. Unfortunately this poster was published in some books on SS posters...

The fake #1 "Paris" is quite common, the fake #2 "Paris" is less common but it is easy to see that it is a fake, and the fake #3 (blank) is indeed a repro (sold as a repro) by a Parisian store (Europsurplus) in the late 80's/early 90's. It is printed on glossy paper. This glossy paper of course react to the UV light, like the fake #2 "Paris".

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

unfortunately this one is the fake #1 "Paris", which was still published in some books and articles about SS posters...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1023082

See You

Vince

[Antonio Scapini]

I totally disagree on this post.
I totally disagree since I got a couple of those you called fake #1 "Paris" before the '70.
I would not be so fast in dismiss items, before dismissing something you should do tests on inks and papers used on originals and create a database of original data.

I did the same on TK rings, nowdays a couple of comparisons made with off focus or small pictures are IMO totally useless. Nowdays we MUST offer scientifical, unquestionable proofs, not sell opinions as truth.
For example I have several posters that are not pictures in period pictures, it's quite common, but this doens't mean they are fakes!

First step is to find the unquestionable characteristics of originals. And in this post I only read your opinion.

I firmly believe it's time to change the approach we have on militaria.

[TheMadBaron]

Hi,

unfortunately this one is the fake #1 "Paris", which was still published in some books and articles about SS posters...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1023082

See You

Vince

I thought that poster looked extremely suspicious. The immaculate condition, disproportionately small text that's really nonsensical for the purpose, etc. If it actually sold then I feel very sorry for the buyer.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hello Antonio,

the fake #1 "Paris" is a bad reprint which is using -in my opinion - a blank original model, with a "fantasy" text copied from the "Nancy" poster.

The "Nancy" poster was in the collection of René Bail, then was bought on auction by a French museum.

All is against this poster :

- smaller size,

- ugly paper that is UV glowing,

- ugly print (you can check that with your microscope if you want),

- we have no info about a "Paris" poster made in the same size as the blank prototype / "Nancy" posters (which would be more logical, due to the too small orange strip of the more common original blank model),

- i will double check, because i may have more info on who did this print and when.

Now what is strange in your message is that you are providing not a single proof on why this poster is original.
Your only proof is "i got a couple of them before the 70's".
I heard that for many many other fakes, usually this poor argument was used to "authenticate" them.

Unless you provide a) historical proof and b) technical proof that this fake is indeed original, your post will be unsubstantial, only using the argument of autority.

The book of Jean Mabire is already the source of another confirmed fake, the Sturmbrigade Stabskp Erkennungsmarken which flooded the market.
One original was shown in the book, and was copied by a Parisian crook.

So my hypothesis is that a crook (maybe the same one as the EKM) copied the "Nancy" poster (shown in the Mabire book) with the address of the Ersatzkommando Frankreich.

As i said, your unproven comment that this fake was available "before the 70's" is of course not a proof of anything.
If you are indeed right (the fakes existed before 1973, date of publication of "La Brigade Frankreich" book), it just proves that the fake #1 "Paris" poster was made before the release of the Mabire's book.
But it is still a fake.

Did a real "Paris" poster exist ?
To date, i was unable to get any evidence of that.
Many other SS posters were shown on the walls of Paris, and none included the location (even on an added paper stripe) of the HQ of the Ersatzkommando Frankreich. One poster showing an address, is the small poster for the Waffen-SS exhibition in Paris (on the Champs-Elysées). In the HQ of the Ersatzkommando Frankreich is another poster that is having addresses of recruitment centres (?).
Only the Ersatzkommando Frankreich der Waffen-SS flyers are showing the address of the HQ, 24, avenue du Recteur Poincaré.

Below you will find a picturesshowing under UV light from left to right :

- an original blank HOCH poster,
- the fake #1 "Paris" poster,
- the blank fake #3 (Europsurplus, glossy paper) poster,
- another original blank HOCH poster.

Trust me, the fake #1 "Paris" glows...

I'm waiting your "study" on the subject Antonio.
I provided my points and facts. Now it's your turn.

See You

Vince

[Antonio Scapini]

Wait a minute.
Where are the proofs you are talking about?

I only see a picture that can be everything... And can be questionable. For example what you call fake "Paris" can be lighter due to a different paper composition and thickness, or for a storage in a place where chemical reactions produced a change... Anyway it doesn't glow like a modern paper as you said, nor like the one you call "Flandern" fake.
So, if you consider this a proof, I would say it is a very bad proof. Not believable.

I don't see any comparison between period inks and papers, and fake ones for example. I only read statments.

For sure I'll look for a French poster and I will provide you all the tests with microscope and paper analysys. Make test is not a problem for me, I did so much in these years for metals, that make them for papers will be very easy.
I will aso provide you comparisons with period posters.
Give me some weeks, just need time to find one.

This is what we MUST need to authenticate items. And be sure this is what I will do.

I would like to see you do the same. And at the end compare the results.

I write this post because time are changed, and it's time we change too. Of course this is only my opinion.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

you chose your fight Antonio, at the same time the poster currently on the e-stand should be removed (or sold in the bazaar table as a "fantasy/fake").

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

despite i contacted the mods and the Italian seller Riemen95, the fake poster was sold, for twice the price of a blank original.

So someone was badly burned, but the buyer didn't do his homework, as this poster is debunked for years and was removed from various international auctions and the WAF before...



Picture for the WAF archives, and for postery...

See You

Vince

PS : the book "Gli Eretici" ("The Heretics") is the translated version of the book by Marc Augier (alias Saint-Loup) published in 1965.
The book is partially fantasy (Saint-Loup lied heavily about his own life as a collaborator...), and you can't count the number of historical errors on his book (the best book so far on the French in the Waffen-SS is "For Europe" by Robert Forbes, latest edition by Stackpole Books in 2010).
The poster is NOT present in any of the French original issues, and "Gli Eretici" is an Italian edition published in... 2018.
Fakes are unfortunately common in modern publications, even in French ones.

[Max Wünsche]

I thought that poster looked extremely suspicious. The immaculate condition, disproportionately small text that's really nonsensical for the purpose, etc. If it actually sold then I feel very sorry for the buyer.

Immaculate condition and disproportionately small text has no bearing whatsoever when determining original and fake posters from pre-45.

I have seen and own numerous posters with text even smaller than this and condition that could be considered mint and all are original.

Having said that, these posters with printing I have never been comfortable with.

Although from afar they look the same as originals, this one on closer inspection has inferior print quality.

The originals have a far smoother print quality and do not have the thicker dark pin stripe line of separation, or at least not to this exaggerated extent.

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[Max Wünsche]

Compare the grainy quality of the fake to the smoother quality of the original below.

I have found over the years that posters with a lot of ink and no white borders tend to be harder to authenticate,
having said that they all have a giveaway trait that ultimately shows them for what they are.

Sure, I have seen posters of the same type with differences that can be put down to differing results during the
printing process, different printing shop and even how they were stored over the past 75+ years all have a part
to play in how two original posters can appear different.

Having said that, such a big different in print quality when viewed up close rings alarm bells for me.

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[Max Wünsche]

And again, the speckled grainy quality of the fake compared this original...
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[TheMadBaron]

Immaculate condition and disproportionately small text has no bearing whatsoever when determining original and fake posters from pre-45.

That’s probably one of the most inane things I’ve ever read on here. No SS poster will materialize without fatigue, soiling, creasing and folding marks, etc. None. And I’m quite well situated to speak on that, given the volume of TR visual materials I process through work. As for the text, it’s impractical for the proportion of the imagery and indicative that it’s a fantasy piece. Now, if you’ve owned anything like this now or in the past, you need to take a second look at your collection.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i had a long and fruitful discussion with the best specialist of the French in the Waffen-SS, M. Eric Lefèvre.

The first info i can disclose is that the "Nancy" poster picture was provided by René Bail, but the actual poster was not owned by him.
René was a war photographer for the French Marine nationale, who was involved in special operations in Algeria. He wrote many famous books about the wars (WW2, Indochina, Algeria). Amongst them, biographies of Jean Gabin/Moncorgé and Jean de Mayol de Lupé (chaplain of the LVF and then the "Charlemagne"). He passed away in 2016, please find a picture of him when he was a soldier.

So the "Nancy" poster was in an unknown collection in 1973 up to the early 2000's (?) when it was auctioned (and bought by the Mémorial de la Shoah).

The second info, who will close temporary this subject, is that it is confirmed that the fake #1 "Paris" was made by Pierre-Ange Caravano, famously known to be the maker/promoter of many fake SS items (you can check on the net, and on the WAF, for example the SS light facial masks).
M. Lefèvre confirmed that the poster was made after the release of "La brigade Frankreich" book (1973), as M. Caravano was too young at the time.

So if Antonio really got "similar" Parisian posters before the 70's, then it implies :

- those were original posters (and their sizes may have been different and bigger, similar to the "Nancy" model ?). It could be plausible, but again, not a single French collector on the subject never heard or saw a possible original "Parisian" variation yet.

- those were different fakes (it can't be the Caravano ones).

- the memory of Antonio may have been fooled, and he indeed got his (fake) posters in the late 70's/early 80's (note : we all know that it is hard to remember clearly details decades after the actual events).
Without period pictures of those posters, it is the more plausible explaination, as we don't have any proof that other variations than the "Nancy" poster existed.

I'm still hoping that more copies may surface (other copies of the "Nancy" poster, or blank posters of the bigger size as the one pictured at the Ersatzkommando Frankreich HQ), even maybe a Parisian original ? It would be an amazing discovery indeed.

I'm adding below a picture from my archives, when i visited the Mémorial de la Shoah 6 years ago. You will see the original "Nancy" (big) model, the original blank model and the fake #1 "Paris" model. On the far right, part of the "Unités françaises" SS recruitment booklet.
You can easily notice the pale colour of the orange strip of the fake...

See You

Vince

[Max Wünsche]

That’s probably one of the most inane things I’ve ever read on here. No SS poster will materialize without fatigue, soiling, creasing and folding marks, etc. None. And I’m quite well situated to speak on that, given the volume of TR visual materials I process through work. As for the text, it’s impractical for the proportion of the imagery and indicative that it’s a fantasy piece. Now, if you’ve owned anything like this now or in the past, you need to take a second look at your collection.

Are you trying to live up to your moniker.... MAD..... as well as being a little dim...

I do not even think you read my comment nor did you understand it.

Having purchased posters direct from archives and elsewhere that have been very well stored since the war I can attest to there being MINT original posters that survived the war.

Text being of an impractical proportion to the imagery is common when it is the recruitment address that is added to the poster... Just how much information do you think they could have squeezed onto that small orange strip genius....????

I could post numerous examples of original posters that have their recruitment details printed in small and in some cases very small text.

I suggest you think before you type as you will be in danger of spouting more ridiculous drivel as per above...

And I’m quite well situated to speak on that

Sure you are....

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[TheMadBaron]

Are you trying to live up to your moniker.... MAD..... as well as being a little dim...

I do not even think you read my comment nor did you understand it.

Having purchased posters direct from archives and elsewhere that have been very well stored since the war I can attest to there being MINT original posters that still exist.

Text being of an impractical proportion to the imagery is common when it is the recruitment address that is added to the poster... Just how much information do you think they could have squeezed onto that small orange strip genius....????

I could post numerous examples of original posters that have their recruitment details printed in small and in some cases very small text.

I suggest you think before you type as you will be in danger of spouting more ridiculous drivel as per above...




Sure you are....

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Coming from the guy agitating for the authenticity of known fantasy posters.