Bandenkampf doc signature

[valsente]

Hekko guys,
I need your help abiut this doc: who dis sign it? I am not able to read this signature.
Thanks in advance
Val

[tompress]

Der Höchste SS- und Polizeiführer in Italien in this time was Karl Wolff:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wolff_(SS-Mitglied)

But this is not his signature...

regards
Tomasz

[valsente]

Der Höchste SS- und Polizeiführer in Italien in this time was Karl Wolff:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wolff_(SS-Mitglied)

But this is not his signature...

regards
Tomasz

SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei Jürgen von Kamptz
1 April 1944-29 April 1945: At the same time, Chief of the Anti-Partisan Staff in the area of responsibility of the Supreme SS and Police Leader “Italy” (SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS Karl Wolff).

But the signature doesn't seem his one.

[hucks216]

It is a faked citation. The signature is just a faker scribbling anything that looks like a signature without actually knowing what the name should be.

[max history]

It's signed by SS-Obergruf. M. Mouse. Awarded for gallantry in the Disneyland campaign.

[valsente]

It's signed by SS-Obergruf. M. Mouse. Awarded for gallantry in the Disneyland campaign.

I regret not being in agreement with your "nice" considerations showing your very little knowledge of the Italian war events of the period of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Events that obviously also involved the 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division. deer SS (italianische Nr.1), composed of Italian volunteers.
On April 18, 1945, Wolff was in Berlin talking with Hitler and in Italy he returned only on April 21 when he was able to resume negotiations for the conclusion of Operation Sunrise, going to Recoaro Terme on April 22nd to the General Vietinghoff's headquarters. On 23 he was in Lucerne (Switzerland) where he remained until 26.
It is clear that Wolff could have neither time nor opportunity to sign this document and that someone else must have done it for him.
Another reason is the fact that in addition to this document I have another document for an iron cross assigned to the same soldier on 21.4.45 signed by the Oberführer Erwin Tzschoppe, the last commander of 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division.
At this point I hope that some true connoisseur of the signatures of the German generals will know how to recognize this signature.

[hucks216]

...
At this point I hope that some true connoisseur of the signatures of the German generals will know how to recognize this signature.

They won't - it is a fake.

Here is a list of all SS-Generals taken from the July 1944 Dienstaltersliste der Waffen-SS. None of them with the relevant rank looks like that signature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regist...neral%27s_rank

[max history]

I regret not being in agreement with your "nice" considerations showing your very little knowledge of the Italian war events of the period of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Events that obviously also involved the 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division. deer SS (italianische Nr.1), composed of Italian volunteers.
On April 18, 1945, Wolff was in Berlin talking with Hitler and in Italy he returned only on April 21 when he was able to resume negotiations for the conclusion of Operation Sunrise, going to Recoaro Terme on April 22nd to the General Vietinghoff's headquarters. On 23 he was in Lucerne (Switzerland) where he remained until 26.
It is clear that Wolff could have neither time nor opportunity to sign this document and that someone else must have done it for him.
Another reason is the fact that in addition to this document I have another document for an iron cross assigned to the same soldier on 21.4.45 signed by the Oberführer Erwin Tzschoppe, the last commander of 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division.
At this point I hope that some true connoisseur of the signatures of the German generals will know how to recognize this signature.

Well you carry on believing what you believe, and I'll carry on believing what I do. Can't say fairer than that, can I?

[valsente]

That's sure because I think impossible to sentence "this doc is a fake" only bacause you can't know the signature on it without telling about paper, writing, stamp over all, etc..
I remain of my opinion and you of yours. I'm not a fool. I study German documents for at least 20 years and I can recognize a true document from a fake to 99.9%. In fact I didn't ask if the document was true or false but only if someone knew the signature. The rest does not interest me because I am able to judge it alone.
Anyway, thanks to your attention to my post-
Val

[Hank C.]

...edit...
Another reason is the fact that in addition to this document I have another document for an iron cross assigned to the same soldier on 21.4.45 signed by the Oberführer Erwin Tzschoppe, the last commander of 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division.
At this point I hope that some true connoisseur of the signatures of the German generals will know how to recognize this signature.

Sadly, the fact you have another document makes no difference. "Added" documents are nothing new in the minefield of SS (or other branches), to boost value of the associated docs.
The facts that
1) This signature looks like crap, and
2) A number of knowledgeable people well versed in SS Generals don't recognize the signature (and SS Generals have been studied to death, literally)
should be a gentle nudge in the direction that this doc may be fake.
That said, if you're happy/confident with it, really nothing else matters. 👍
All the best 😊
H

[hucks216]

...In fact I didn't ask if the document was true or false but only if someone knew the signature. The rest does not interest me because I am able to judge it alone.

Val

That is true, you didn't ask for opinions. But you did ask for someone to identify the signature and the reason that no one can is because it is a faked document.
I am glad you can spot a fake document 99.9% of the time but unfortunately this one falls in to the .1% of the time when you haven't.

But as Hank says, if you are ok with it then so be it.

[Simon O.]

I regret not being in agreement with your "nice" considerations showing your very little knowledge of the Italian war events of the period of the Italian Social Republic (RSI). Events that obviously also involved the 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division. deer SS (italianische Nr.1), composed of Italian volunteers.
On April 18, 1945, Wolff was in Berlin talking with Hitler and in Italy he returned only on April 21 when he was able to resume negotiations for the conclusion of Operation Sunrise, going to Recoaro Terme on April 22nd to the General Vietinghoff's headquarters. On 23 he was in Lucerne (Switzerland) where he remained until 26.
It is clear that Wolff could have neither time nor opportunity to sign this document and that someone else must have done it for him.
Another reason is the fact that in addition to this document I have another document for an iron cross assigned to the same soldier on 21.4.45 signed by the Oberführer Erwin Tzschoppe, the last commander of 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division.
At this point I hope that some true connoisseur of the signatures of the German generals will know how to recognize this signature.

Val, you've answered your own question here. As the stamp, rank and office held states on the document, it was signed by the HöSSPF Italien, which was Wolff. No other person could sign the document claiming that office and rank. In order to do so it would be clearly stated that the signing officer was doing so on behalf of or as someone delegated with that office whilst Wolff was away. That is why it's fake.

In addition, the thin black pen signature has been used on quite a few other fakes seen over the years.

[Hundestaffel]

Another example of the thin black pen signature on a post-war SS ID (same hand actually as this post-war BK document)

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1004220

[mufasa]

Val, you've answered your own question here. As the stamp, rank and office held states on the document, it was signed by the HöSSPF Italien, which was Wolff. No other person could sign the document claiming that office and rank. In order to do so it would be clearly stated that the signing officer was doing so on behalf of or as someone delegated with that office whilst Wolff was away. That is why it's fake.

In addition, the thin black pen signature has been used on quite a few other fakes seen over the years.

these topics are always very interesting to discover all the compilation mechanisms of these documents ...

Ciao Oriano

[max history]

Val, you've answered your own question here. As the stamp, rank and office held states on the document, it was signed by the HöSSPF Italien, which was Wolff. No other person could sign the document claiming that office and rank. In order to do so it would be clearly stated that the signing officer was doing so on behalf of or as someone delegated with that office whilst Wolff was away. That is why it's fake.

Apart from that, the correct rank is SS-Obergruppenführer UND General der Waffen-SS. Plus, of course, the most obvious flaw....the fantasy signature.
Sorry, Valsente, but even your 20 years of experience is outranked here. I can double that.
Max.