Please help to Id some officers of 1. Geb.Div. 1941

[Archi]

Hello dan734 !

Thanks for pointing to that two great groupings !

I hope to finish that WP as soon as possible. The bad news for you is perhaps, that once he had been promoted to Lt.,
he was transferred to GJR 13 (4. Geb.Div.).
On the other hand, most of the time before, he was with 11. Kp. GJR 98, so its quite possible, that he knew Winneberger well .

I have shown some parts of the WP already for other reasons, here are links to the units page and his promotions :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...63&postcount=6
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...82&postcount=9

Thanks again for your help and best regards,

Archi

[dan734]

Hello dan734 !

Thanks for pointing to that two great groupings !

I hope to finish that WP as soon as possible. The bad news for you is perhaps, that once he had been promoted to Lt.,
he was transferred to GJR 13 (4. Geb.Div.).
On the other hand, most of the time before, he was with 11. Kp. GJR 98, so its quite possible, that he knew Winneberger well .

I have shown some parts of the WP already for other reasons, here are links to the units page and his promotions :
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...63&postcount=6
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...82&postcount=9

Thanks again for your help and best regards,

Archi

Interesting career! Thanks for the links!

[marcinkappa]

Hello !

Many thanks to marcinkappa for posting that additional info !
Excellent !

Did you talk with the veteran which scenario is displayed in the image ?

No, unfortunately the veteran died in early 50`s.
So we can`t figure out what scenario could be displayed on the painting. But he left precise names describing of that painting.

It is said that the painting could picture the assult of Stalin Line but I doubt it. Stalin Linie is the time in the middle of July 1941. And Palmie visited 1. Gebirgs Division rather later, early autumn like September, even November 1941?

Gisbert Palmie was a guest of my officer unit so they spent most of that time side by side. They exchanged letters till the end of the war and later. He also painted my officers portrait which is dated 27.XI.1941.
I don`t think that Palmie could be with Gebirgsjeagers since July 1941 all the time till (at least) 27.11.1941 ? it would be a few months??? Too long.

So if we have a portrait dated on November 1941 then the famous drawing "Before the battle" could picture just one of many such officers meetings, not particulary the one concerning Stalin Line ??

[marcinkappa]

The portrait is dated 27.XI.1941 and placed in Kurgan Pagoreloff.

So it is perfectly matches the place when Generalstab stationed from 23.11.1941 to 02.12.1941. - it is marked on the map by my officers himself.

[marcinkappa]

I see there is a "weak" reading here on WAF about almost every topic
Lionel already mentioned it showing great items in many threads .... What a pitty.

You completely missed my post from this thread in which I got you a little challange to guess about my avatar, which I think could be fun and interesting, nobody till now did even tried ......

[Archi]

Hello Marcinkappa !

First, many thanks for your very interesting contribution and explanation on that painting !
It became too late yesterday to answer, sorry.
I hope I can do it this evening.

Regarding your Avatar quiz (which is a nice idea anyway) :
Could it be Major Eimannsberger ?

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[marcinkappa]

Archi,

what can I say?
The first shot and already bingo

[marcinkappa]

Now I checked Palmie letters and I suppose that the whole story of the painting could be told there ?

Just still did not translate them and they are waiting for my free time in the future

For example the letter dated 30.01.1942.

[marcinkappa]

Any help in translating to english?

[marcinkappa]

Correct me if I wrong but the painting Gisbert Palmie "Vor der Schlacht" after the exhibition was bougth personally by Adolf Hilter to his collection for 22.000 RM ?

I can`t blame fuehrer as I would gladly dream to have such fine art by myself.
Once again I say (already said that in another thread) Palmie was outstanding artist.

[marcinkappa]

Hank and Archi helped to translate the fragment of Palmie letter:

... ein paar machen. Allgemein wird
Ihr Kopf schon als ein ganz besonderes
Prachtexemplar bewundert. Kunststück
da eine gute Zeichnung zu machen.
Als Zeichnung ist sie glaube ich recht
gut als Ähnlichkeit dürfte ich noch mehr
... ... ... ... zum Ausdruck gebracht ....

Possible translation :

In general, your head is admired as a "splendid specimen"/ a doozie (?!).
No feat to make a well done drawing from it.
As a drawing itself it is quite good, considering the similarity / the exactness,
I could have .. ... ... ?? ... ...

So we are talking about Major i.G. Eimannsberger head, nice !
The person placed on the painting "Vor der Schlacht".
Palmie`s letters may have more clues.

[Archi]

Hello !

I tried to find some further infos :

1.) Regarding the scene that is shown in the painting :
I could not find real proof, whether this displays a conference on the evening before the attack on the Stalin-Line.
At least, all officers on the image could have been there, because of their positions at that time.
Also, this is used as description on the Huesken website, but I don't know where this description is coming from ?!
https://www.huesken.com/shop/de/kuns...rte-86868.html

From the info shared by marcinkappa it seems clear, that the artist was not present at that time.
Maybe it is safe to say, that Palmie painted an excellent picture, that gives an impression of the atmosphere of such a meeting,
whether it happened on that day or on a similar occasion.

2.) Regarding the historical correctness :
There is a famous painting on the foundation of the German Kaiserreich in 1871 :
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Pr...8._Januar_1871)
The Wiki page shows, that several variants where produced over the years and sometimes persons were painted as participants,
although they actually had not been there.

So I would assume, that artists sometimes could take their freedom and for example show an officer with a Knightscross,
although it had been awarded only later on. (e.g. Oberst Kress was awarded the KC as late as 20.12.41)
Perhaps the analysis of the letters of Palmie by marcinkappa will clarify more details on the circumstances of the painting !

3.) Regarding the identification of officers from photos etc. :
Because I was fascinated by the discussion between dan734 and marcinkappa, I tried to find some further photos/infos, that could help.
I found the following observations worth sharing :
a) obviously I am not the only one with great difficulties analyzing photos and recognizing faces !
In a serious book by a Kunstwissenschaftler, dealing with the style of art of the NS age and its implications, General Lanz is
identified as General Alfred Jodl and the Oberstlt. Lang as Wilhelm Keitel !
https://books.google.de/books?id=bw7...hlacht&f=false
However, with my zero out of twelve identifications, I should perhaps better not point on others ...

b) While trying to help to solve the Oberst Picker - Major Baron von Le Fort issue, I noticed that it seems difficult to find
photos for both of them as officers.
However, I also found that Baron Le Fort had been the Generalsekretär des Organisationskomitees für die IV. Olympischen Winterspiele 1936.
I'll provide some links with photos of him (in the official Olympia book 1936, he is on p. 18):
https://digital.la84.org/digital/col...d/14738/rec/17
http://www.gapgeschichte.de/ns_zeit_...on_le_fort.htm

Depending on which photo I looked at, I really couldn't decide which of the two officers on the painting is a better match,
as I think they look quite similar.
But finally I played around a bit and mirrored the photos of Picker and Le Fort and thought : Perhaps dan 734 has a point !

I will also add a photo of Hptm. Eisgruber, but I am not sure if that helps.
I couldn't find a photo of Hptm. Hörl without a cap or a helmet. So perhaps we have to trust Hptm. Eimannsberger in that case.

Would like to hear what you think ?!

Best regards,

Archi

[marcinkappa]

Hello there,

I think everything comes to the final end of identification.

My officer described 4 persons sitting by the table, Le Fort, Picker, Fleischmann, Winkler - in that order.

So I assumend that Le Fort would be the first one counting from left by the table.

But thanks to Dan and Archi we can assume it is Picker so my officer started from Le Fort - but as a person sitting at the bottom of the table.

So Picker and Le Fort should be reversed with the names
I missmatched Picker and Le Fort.

So here we go.

[Raphael1]

who is major hoffmann and hauptmann knabl? no mention of his name in the previous posts.

[Archi]

Hello marcinkappa and all !

Now everything fits together nicely !
That would also resolve the questions regarding the KC and the Waffenfarbe of his shoulder straps, Dan had mentioned.

Also the description in the book makes much more sense now, if the author describes the persons in the same way :
starting at the front with Baron Le Fort [#10], going round the table clockwise to Gen. Lanz,
and then describing the men in the rear (but he forgot to mention Lang and Kress).

For a better overview, I'll repost the first picture with "my" numbers and organize the officers
by units /HQs and with their positions.
[#13 and #14 are not on the image in the book].

I assume, that Maj. Hofman is CO of the supply units [KoDiNa] ?!
As Raphael1, I couldn't find any info on Hptm. Knabl. If someone knows more of him, it would be great.

Finally I post a photo and a drawing of Major Fleischmann from the book by Thomas and Wegmann.
perhaps someone knows, whether this is also from Palmie ?

Any other comments still welcome. Many thanks to all, who helped in clarifying this puzzle !

Best regrds,

Archi

===========================
1. Geb.Div. officers on painting by Gisbert Palmie :

Div. Stab :
# 2 : Generalmajor Lanz (RK: 1.10.40 (Genstb. XVIII. AK.))
# 4 : Maj. Steets [Ia] [DKiG 11.04.42 as Oberstlt. i.G.]
#13 : Hptm. Knabl (function unclear) [not on the BW image]
#14 : Hptm./Maj. v. Eimannsberger [Ib, temporary Ia] [DKiG 22.03.44, 3. Geb.Div.]
# 1 : Maj. Hofmann, Dr. Hans-Otto [Kdr. DiNaFü 54] [DKiS 18.01.43 as Otl., KoDiNa 54]

GJR 98 :
# 9 : Ob. Picker [Kdr. 98] (RK: 18.11.41 /Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 98)
# 6 : Maj. Eisgruber [Kdr. II./98, ab 3.10.41 Kdr. FEB 54; DKiG 24.05.42]
# 8 : Maj. Salminger [Kdr. III./98] (RK: 31.08.41 /Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 98))

GJR 99 :
# 3 : Ob. Kress [Kdr. 99] (RK: 20.12.41 /Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 99)
#11 : Maj. Fleischmann [Kdr. I./99] (RK 31.3.42, DKiG 24.12.41)

Geb.Pi.Btl. 54 :
# 5 : Maj. Schlager [Kdr. Geb.Pi.-Btl.54, no major awards]

Geb.Art.Rgt. 79 :
#12 : Ob. Winkler [Kdr. GAR 79] (DKiG 15.12.41)
#10 : Maj. Baron von Le Fort [Kdr. II./GAR 79] (DKiG 13.12.42)

Geb.Pzjg.Abt. 44 :
# 7 : Maj. Lang [Kdr.] (RK 23.08.41)
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