Please help to Id some officers of 1. Geb.Div. 1941

[Archi]

Hello !

I hope for help on identifying some Officers from 1. Gebirgsdivision.
Below is a painting, showing a discussion on the evening of 14.7.41, before the attack on the Stalin-Linie.

The picture is shown in the divisional history, but I don't understand the description (who is where ?) and
I am also not sure, whether some of the Knightscrosses would have been awarded only later on.

I especially would be interested, who is Major Salminger, as this is the Kdr. of the III./Gebjg.Rgt. 98, the battalion
of "my soldier" !

Currently, I think I could only identify # 1 and # 12, perhaps :
# 1 : Generalmajor Lanz
#12 : Major Steets ( Ia )

(if #12 is correct, #11 could be Maj. Herbert Schlager, Kdr. Geb.Pi.Btl. 54 ... ?!)
Any further help/correction would be appreciated !

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[naxos]

Here is how I see it:

There are 12 men illustrated but only 9 named

7 - von Le Fort
8 - Picker
4 - Fleischmann
3 - Winkler
2 - Hubert Lanz
9 - Salminger
12 - Steets
11 - Schlager
10 - Eisgruber

[dan734]

Hello! I am not sure the description in the book you showed is correct. I have the reproduction of this painting on war-time postcard and there is nothing said about attack on Stalin-line. I think that:
1- is GJR 98 cdr. Picker
2- III GJR 98 cdr. Salminger
3- GJR 99 cdr. Kress
All this persons were awarded KC later than the attack on Stalin-line took place. Also Kress is not mentioned in description, while I am sure that 3 is Kress. So I believe there is a wrong description in the book.

[Archi]

Hello naxos and dan734 !

Many thanks for your assistance in this topic !

Identifying potrtraits (and analyzing pictures is general) is still a major problem for me.
I wanted to use this painting in a presentation of a WP of a Geb.jg. Lt. and hoped for some quick answers.
(this pic is from the divisional history by R. Kaltenegger). Now things seem to be much more complicated !
And it seems clear, that something is wrong with the description in the book .

Regarding the situation shown in the painting :
I still would think that it is very likely, that this shows that discussion on 14.7.41.
Currently, I see no other situation, where so many Kdre. would gather to discuss a special task (and that was important enough
to later make a painting from it).
Later, the regiments and subunits were almost always distributed across wide areas.
(But that is no proof of course, only my speculation ...).

Regarding the many KCs shown, not matching the date :
I would assume, this can be attributed to this beeing a painting, not showing a historic accurate scene, but intended to show
some dramatic scene (perhaps for propaganda ?).
Therefore, I would assume the officers would be shown with the appropriate awards, they had earned by the time the painting was made.
(again, another speculation ...).

If that theory is correct :
The man on the very left could not be Maj. Le Fort, as he never was awarded the RK/KC.
If the painting is produced at sometime in early 1942, there would be only two candidates for #7 :
Maj. Lang or Maj. Fleischmann (see info below).

Below, I tried to compile a list od Kdre., with their positions and ranks in July 41 and the major awards.

====================
With the help of naxos and dan734 and the better scan, some things are clear now (I use "my numbers" from the first pic):
# 2 : Generalmaj. Lanz (RK: 1.10.40 (Genstb. XVIII. AK.))
and assuming dan734 is correct :
# 9 : Ob. Picker [Kdr. 98] (RK: 18.11.41 (Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 98))
# 8 : Maj. Salminger [Kdr. III./98] (RK: 18.11.41 (Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 98))
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...88&postcount=4
# 3 : Ob. Kress [Kdr. 99] (RK: 18.11.41 (Kdr. Gebjg.Rgt. 98))

then tentatively identifications by naxos and me :
#12 : Maj. Steets [Ia] [DKiG 11.04.42 as Oberstlt. i.G.]
#11 : Maj. Schlager [Kdr. Geb.Pi.-Btl.54, no major awards]
#10 : Maj. Eisgruber [Kdr. II./98, ab 3.10.41 Kdr. FEB 54; DKiG 24.05.42]

listed with name, but unclear :
#?? : Maj. Fleischmann [Kdr. I./99] (RK 31.3.42, DKiG 24.12.41)
#?? : Ob. Winkler [Kdr. GAR 79] (DKiG 15.12.41)
#?? : Maj. von Le Fort [Kdr. II./GAR 79] (DKiG 13.12.42)

not listed, but expected to be there :
Kdr. I./98 : Maj. Wölfinger [DKiG 19.12.41]
Kdr. II./99 : Maj. Dauner [DKiG 04.07.43]
=> Kdr. III./99 : Maj. Hörl [DKiG 11.04.42]

Perhaps also expected to be there :
=> Kdr. Geb.Pzjg.Abt. 44 : Maj. Lang (RK 23.08.41)

Especially I would expect Maj. Hörl (who given the task to lead the attack with III./99) and Maj. Lang, who took part
in many important tasks in those days, to participate in that discussion !

Any further comments would be very welcome !

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

[marcinkappa]

Hello there,

I already identified all of them few years ago in another thread.
Here you go

[marcinkappa]

BTW, my avatar showes exactly one of those officers from the painting.

Can you guess which one of them it would be ?

[dan734]

№4 is Maj. Lang
Fleischmann was awarded KC posthumously.
№5 IMO is Hörl
№6 is very similar to Steets - here is his photo from Hubert Lanz's book.

[dan734]

Hello there,

I already identified all of them few years ago in another thread.
Here you go

Thanks for great addition, but I think that Picker is not identified correctly on your picture. Le Fort did not have RK

[marcinkappa]

All officers are identified correctly, you can be sure.

[dan734]

Hello there,

I already identified all of them few years ago in another thread.
Here you go

Eisgruber on your picture also can be Hörl

[marcinkappa]

Dan, the identification which I enclosed for WAF members was originaly done not by me but by one officer pictured on the painting, so really no mistakes here.

[dan734]

Dan, the identification which I enclosed for WAF members was originaly done not by me but by one officer pictured on the painting, so really no mistakes here.

Ok, but I still insist that there is some mistake with Le Fort and Picker. There are 2 reasons:
1) Le Fort never had KC, and on the picture the man is wearing KC
2) Picker was GJR 98 commander, so his shoulder straps waffenfarbe should be green , but it is not green - its colour on the photo is for artillery unit
In my opinion Le Fort and Picker are mixed up on your picture. Best regards.

[marcinkappa]

There is always a little percentage of probability that my officer could made mistake on the officers names but it is really HIGHLY not possible and I really doubt it. They knew each other very well and spent so much time together. No chances for mistake.

Another case is that you trust Gisbert Palmie as an artist and his painting itself too much, I mean Palmie made only sketches and notes during his visit in the 1. Geb.Div. and the painting was done by Palmie later after returnig home from Eastern front. So the faces are very good, nicely done, but the KC one or another could be simply added by Palmie by mistake. But the persons are identified correctly.

[Archi]

Hello !

Many thanks to marcinkappa for posting that additional info !
Excellent !

Did you talk with the veteran which scenario is displayed in the image ?

Here is what I wanted to write regarding the attack onto the Stalin line (as such is it stated by Kaltenegger) :

The Stalin-line was a very well fortified position along the old Polish-Russian border.
There was a major disagreement between Korps-Kdr. General Kübler and Generalmajor Lanz, how to accomplish this task.
This whole discussion, whether/how to disobey orders, must have been so important for the division, that it was later
captured in a painting !

Instead of the frontal attack, that had been ordered by Kübler, General Lanz ordered a deceiptive attack in the North and fielded
the bulk of his troops in the South, using the coverage of a creek valley, that could not be inspected by the enemy and its artillery.
Therefore, the troops could come close to the bunker-line without major losses and finally surprised the defense.
At the end of the day, the division had achieved the breakthrough and the division could advance to the East, taking Winniza on 19.7.41.

Many thanks for the help and the very interesting discussion. Already learned a lot !

Best regards,

Archi

[dan734]

I wanted to use this painting in a presentation of a WP of a Geb.jg. Lt. and hoped for some quick answers.

It would be VERY interesting to see that WP! WP of an officier from GJR 98 is a great find in any case! Here are my, both from III btl. too:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=989369

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=987416