document for PAB in Bronze grade III - 50 assaults

[pep]

new in.
late war issued high grade Panzerkampfabzeichen award document. very hard to find for its grade plus being for the badge in BRONZE (Pz-aufklärungs abteilung 24). FPN correct for this unit.
appears to be signed by Müller. not the abteilungs commander. what does means "leutnant u. Ord.Ofzz"? commander's adjutant? does somebody knows who signed it?

[Angel Farré]

The Feldpost is for the Stab of the Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 24, why it was signed by a Leutnant instead of the Major Hildebrant who was the commander in 1.945 is unknown to me.

Cheers

Angel

[Brian R]

I don’t believe this is a wartime award document.

Did it come as single or in a group? Either way, it’s not for me. I’m just curious if it was sold individually or was meant to “enhance” an existing group.

[hucks216]

The ink used for the signature and the style it is signed is similar to a whole raft of fakes that have been coming out of Germany for the last few years. The fakes either belong to a highly collectible unit such as GD, LSSAH or HJ or rarely seen citations such as this one or the grades of the Anti-Partisan Badge for example.

[Brian R]

Pep - if I remember correctly, you and I discussed a fake Verleihungsliste years ago. I’d bet this was made by the same faker. I’m with hucks on this.

[Angel Farré]

This kind of citations looks like are made to either fool new collectors or to enhance genuine groups, I suffered in the pass this last situation, you take a big group and all is ok except the big paper who looks ok or, at least, plausible. I purchased two TDB groups in Germany, in the Kassel show, and both has several citations and photos plus the Regimental orders for the TDB, with blurred Feldpost stamps and signed by low rank officers, either i.V. or as Adjutants so one checks the other and all ok, stamps, signatures, dates and you buy the whole till someone with more experience show you your mistake.

Highly dangerous for the beginners and a reminder for us that not all that glitters is gold.

Angel

[Brian R]

Angel. Your point about the i.V. and adjutant signatures is a key issue here. Many of these guys are lost to history so this is how the fakers can fool collectors. These officers are often not researchable anyway, so it’s a great way to slip everything else past.

[pep]

Pep - if I remember correctly, you and I discussed a fake Verleihungsliste years ago. I’d bet this was made by the same faker. I’m with hucks on this.

yes, we did. will look for that thread for comparison.
unfortunately, not in my hands yet. will wait until then and have a close inspection. of course will share high resolution pics.
it's a single document, not part of a group.

[Brian R]

I found the Verleihungsliste in my files. It is, indeed, a very similar signature style.

[pep]

did you saw preiously this kind of denomination? ... "leutnant u. Ord.Ofzz" if yes, what does it means exactly? Usually we see the “adj.” denomination

concerning comparison with the documents that brian and me discussed some time ago, printing of this PAB document seems good. better quality than the EK one. Its lettering, they were too thin compared to originals ... as you say, taking a careful look to the PAB's signature itself, this is not the best part of this story.
Concerning his rank and being a very late document perhaps an "adjutant" would sign in absence of the commander during those chaotic days.
the stamp appears to be legit. this last would be a good sign .…

if it’s a fake document, a great job done. As told previously, not in my hands yet. Will wait to make a close instection, compare with other originals in my collection, post close ups pics here for you. Would be nice to get your feedback after that in order to send it back or not for refund.

These threads are great on these kind of documents to educate and warn collectors. Thanks a lot for your posting.

[Brian R]

I also think the water stain is bogus - added recently by strategically and carefully dropping clean water to make it seemed aged.

[hucks216]

Unfortunately, better images are not required as the one provided is clear enough. These faked citations do show a very good level of research and effort. In the past the stamp used to be a clear fantasy design or the wrong FpNr or were very faint but now they show the correct FpNr and are clear to read (easy to do now with the aid of a good printer) but sometimes, not always but sometimes, that is the giveaway. On some occasions the real examples didn't use stamps with a FpNr but with the unit designation instead but unfortunately you would need to have access to numerous real examples to be able to compare or clarify which in't possible a lot of the time.
But on a lot of examples it is the ink used and the way the signature is written that makes people think "Hmmm, I have seen that style before and more than once," and raises a red flag. Again, sometimes the signature is a good effort at a real person which shows a level of effort that used to be missing from old-old fakes, or lazy fakers, but other times they will use any name that comes to mind especially if it is a common name which makes it harder to research.
The following images are other examples of similar fakes that I have on my files and have been sold in recent years. Apologies for the lack of image quality on a couple of them. I know there are other examples in this Paperwork section but can no longer remember the thread names to be able to seek them out.

[hucks216]

And here is another fake with a bogus water stain (although I can't make my mind up as to whether they were trying for a fake water stain or a blood one):

[pep]

The following images are other examples of similar fakes that I have on my files and have been sold in recent years. Apologies for the lack of image quality on a couple of them. I know there are other examples in this Paperwork section but can no longer remember the thread names to be able to seek them out.

thanks a lot for your contribution!
great feedback for future warnings.

will contact seller.

[tompress]

By the way: abbreviation Ord. Offz. is for Ordonanzoffizier

regards
Tomasz