Gneisenau or Scharnhorst photo?

[terry.h]

Hi Folks,
Could anyone please enlighten me about this photo? I'm pretty sure it's either the Scharnhorst or Gneisenau but I don't know which because they were very similar and they were both altered a couple of times especially with regard to the masts. Any help appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Terry.

[hucks216]

Looks like Scharnhorst. Gneisenau had a gap behind her funnel whereas Scharnhorst didn't.

[Tom B]

Looks like Scharnhorst. Gneisenau had a gap behind her funnel whereas Scharnhorst didn't.

I think you are correct ! Tom

[ZacharyB]

I too think she is the Scharnhorst at first glance, but I'm not 100% certain. Somewhere around here I have a book on this class of battlecruiser and the similarity between the two sister ships is very close.

Here is a good model profile of the Scharnhorst that I found online for comparison.

Regards,

Z

[hucks216]

You're right to be doubtful - it is Gneisenau. By early 1942 she had the part behind her funnel built up so looked the same as Scharnhorst but at the same time Gneisenau kept her main mast on her funnel whereas Scharnhorst kept hers aft of the aircraft position.
German Naval Camouflage Volume 2 by Eric Leon & John Asmussen shows multiple comparisons between the two. I'd say the photo is dated at some point between the ship leaving Brest on 11th February 1942 and being withdrawn from service 2 months later and as she was damaged by a mine on 13th February 1942 and then badly damaged in a bombing raid just 14 days after getting back to Germany which burnt out her bow section I'd say the photo possibly shows Gneisenau during Operation Ceberus on 11th February 1942.

[max history]

I agree with hucks....Gneisenau. There are several subtle differences between the two sister ships, but if you look carefully, you can make them out.
Max.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

yes, Gneisenau, i will take the opportunity to post more infos and pictures taken from the great Heimdal book "La Kriegsmarine" (1997).

Below, three pictures of the arrival of the Gneisenau in Brest on March 22, 1941.

The first picture shows clearly the parts that will be modified during the tenth months during which the battleship will stay in Brest : behind the chimney a big seaplane hangar will be built, and a radar will be added on the top of the rangefinder over the rear 3x 28 cm Cäsar battery.

The last picture shows some Japanese officers on the Gneisenau. You can clearly see the rangefinder of the Cäsar battery.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

The first picture is taken in December 1941 : the repairs and additional work are finally finished on the Gneisenau.
You can see the new seaplane hangar behind the chimney, and the new radar over the rangefinder of the Cäsar battery.

The second picture is from January 1942. The Gneisenau is in the foreground, the Scharnhorst is in the background.
The new radar FuMO 27 is over the Cäsar battery rangefinder.
One main modification was not finished on the Gneisenau : the battleship never got its high rear mast, despite it was available in Brest.
You can clearly see that the Scharnhorst is having its high rear mast.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

the next two pictures show the return in Brest of the Gneisenau after its first trial of a dozen of hours on January 26, 1942.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

10.25 PM, February 11, 1942, the "Cerberus" operation is started.

The first picture shows 3 destroyers of the 5. Z Flottille, followed by the Scharnhorst, leading the convoy.
The picture is taken from the Prinz Eugen around midday on February 12, 1942.

The second picture shows the Scharnhorst dead in the water a few minutes after the battleship was hit by a mine (3.30 PM on February 12, 1942).
The Scharnhorst will be able to regain power in the next 30 minutes.
You can clearly see on this picture the high rear mast that was not installed on the Gneisenau. Picture taken from the Prinz Eugen.

To conclude, the interesting first picture posted by Terry could not have been taken on February 11 (night) or February 12 (the battleship was on his road to Kiel - on the picture of Terry we can see a pier).
I think it may have been taken on January 26, 1942, or when the Gneisenau arrived in Kiel on February 13 (doubtful in my opinion) ?

See You

Vince

[hucks216]

I did mention to Terry in a PM that although I had mentioned 11th February I thought it was doubtful due to the night time sailing and put forward that it might of been before when conducting something like post-refit engine trials in the weeks prior to the operation.
Great photos.

[Maverick 48]

Yes, thank you!

[Archi]

Hello !

Very interesting discussion to read and really a great job by Vince/FrenchVolunteer,
to show the very nice photos and take the time to explain all the details !

Best regards,

Archi