Jewish Stars of David x 2. Advice please.

[terry.h]

Hi,
Could anyone please advise me about these two Stars of David? I found one inside a Jewish Reisepass (made out to Eduard Israel Kopstein) and the other inside a Jewish book called 'Zur Erinnerung an die Bar-mizwah-Feier' (trans. 'In Memory of a Bar-mizwah Celebration').
The Jewish Stars were a part of a number of items I got which originally belonged to the same jewish family (Kopstein). It appears from what I have been informed on the Forum that the other items are original, and they include among other things various documents (including a Talmud and two Jewish Arbeitsbuchs also made out to Kopstein) but there was one document from the original batch that was not original, but this fake item had nothing to do with the Kopsteins.
Can anyone please advise me about the 2 Stars of David? From the condition of them it certainly appears that they have never been used as there are no sewing holes in them and they are clearly in excellent condition, but that also doesn't mean that they aren't genuine, they simply may never have been used which apparently is quite often the case as each jewish family generally had several. I have seen genuine identical Stars with the exact shape of lettering and material which was the type used in Germany and Austria but that is obviously not necessarily conclusive. I have also attached the Reisepass and the Bar-mizwah book simply to point out where I found the Stars.
Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks in advance,
Terry

[GAMS1]

Original stars . One of the multiple versions existing .
I had many of this type coming from a perfect source , printed on different clothes, thin or a bit heavier .
Nick

[Oorlogsspullen]

Unfortunately I have never seen any photographical evidence of this type.

[max history]

I am no expert on these, but don't they look a little too pristine? And "finding" them in a passport and a book does sound a bit too good to be true. As I said, I am no expert, but somehow it just doesn't feel right. Can't put my finger on it. Just my thoughts.

[Oorlogsspullen]

Here is a part of the original stars which are in my collection.
I'm more familiar with this textbook type German star, this type was produced in 1942 by the number one flag producer Geitel & Co in Berlin. (Also manufacturer of the OST and P forced labour patches).
They produced around one million of these stars.
I'm in contact with the Jewish museum in Berlin and they only know about one type of star.
If you search at the United Holocaust Memorial Museum archive you can easily see that the star mentioned in this topic is not in their archive, and this museum has a huge amount of original stars.
As I mentioned before, I have not seen a single photo of the type of stars that have been offered for sale on the E-stand... make a conclusion for yourself

[GAMS1]

The yellow stars i was talking about came 30 years back from the CS Statni Films studios huge stocks of original badges+uniforms of all sorts , but mainly german .
Well known source ! not made sometimes postwar for films but simply in stock since 1945 with so many original german badges+uniforms , mainly WSS ,
PO or WH volunteers .
German made , czech made ? who knows , but the same ones ...
I still have some "somewhere" ...
Nick

[Oorlogsspullen]

I have multiple stadni camp hats from that source, I spoke to my Czech contacts over there and they havent heard this story before either that this particular star was found there.
Do you have any evidence that this type of star was found there? Like a photo of the find or perhaps a photo that this star was worn wartime or produced?
I’m very sceptical about this type because I studied thousends of photos with stars in wear and I cant find any photo or document related to this type.

Even before the holocaust started half of around 500.000 jews fled the country.
At the factory Geitel & Co in Berlin around 1 milion stars were produced for Germany, Austria and Böhemia and Moravia.
To me it doesn’t make any sense while there were enough stars available.
But if you can prove me wrong...

The yellow stars i was talking about came 30 years back from the CS Statni Films studios huge stocks of original badges+uniforms of all sorts , but mainly german .
Well known source ! not made sometimes postwar for films but simply in stock since 1945 with so many original german badges+uniforms , mainly WSS ,
PO or WH volunteers .
German made , czech made ? who knows , but the same ones ...
I still have some "somewhere" ...
Nick

[GAMS1]

I have multiple stadni camp hats from that source, I spoke to my Czech contacts over there and they havent heard this story before either that this particular star was found there.
Do you have any evidence that this type of star was found there? Like a photo of the find or perhaps a photo that this star was worn wartime or produced?
I’m very sceptical about this type because I studied thousends of photos with stars in wear and I cant find any photo or document related to this type.

Even before the holocaust started half of around 500.000 jews fled the country.
At the factory Geitel & Co in Berlin around 1 milion stars were produced for Germany, Austria and Böhemia and Moravia.
To me it doesn’t make any sense while there were enough stars available.
But if you can prove me wrong...

How old are you CZ contacts ? were they already in the branch in the 80's when
Statni Films stocks started to be "sold" under the hood ? before the wall came down in 89/90 ?
Guys working in Barrandov Films studios explained they had a big truck motor box full of reserves in the repair/stock area . they just fished a full plastic bag and sold that discretly to some contacts , czech or to the few foreigners known .
In these "fishing bags" you had badges still attached together from the factory like
WSS tropical chevrons tied in a form of star sometimes , POA shoulder boards , yellow stars , WSS cuff titles ...and sometimes caps like WSS or ASS .
These stars are printed like WH volunteers badges , same cotton base also .
I'm not interested at all in the subject but i was just a witness from this time , getting them among more interesting badges which sold quickly , certainly quicker than these stars as the market was not that wide ?
No pictures of course as nobody had a cell phone to take quick pics at that time ...
No Internet either , don't forget it !
Nick

[Oorlogsspullen]

I know that a lot of Waffen-SS uniforms, caps, insignia, KL jackets came from this source, don't get me wrong, I have some of this material in my collection.
But as long as there is no photographical evidence or any proof (only a story) it will be hard to determine it as an original piece.
Back in the 80's they didn't had any cellphones with cameras, but they had cameras, my contacts showed me photos of piles of German helmets with black paint that also were found in Czech Republic and were photographed with a simple camera.
If you believe these stars, thats fine, everybody can have his own opinion.
But a story is not a fact, it is just a story.

If you could provide me some photos of these stars in wear or production designs, I would love to see it and add it to the book I'm working on.

How old are you CZ contacts ? were they already in the branch in the 80's when
Statni Films stocks started to be "sold" under the hood ? before the wall came down in 89/90 ?
Guys working in Barrandov Films studios explained they had a big truck motor box full of reserves in the repair/stock area . they just fished a full plastic bag and sold that discretly to some contacts , czech or to the few foreigners known .
In these "fishing bags" you had badges still attached together from the factory like
WSS tropical chevrons tied in a form of star sometimes , POA shoulder boards , yellow stars , WSS cuff titles ...and sometimes caps like WSS or ASS .
These stars are printed like WH volunteers badges , same cotton base also .
I'm not interested at all in the subject but i was just a witness from this time , getting them among more interesting badges which sold quickly , certainly quicker than these stars as the market was not that wide ?
No pictures of course as nobody had a cell phone to take quick pics at that time ...
No Internet either , don't forget it !
Nick

[GAMS1]

I know that a lot of Waffen-SS uniforms, caps, insignia, KL jackets came from this source, don't get me wrong, I have some of this material in my collection.
But as long as there is no photographical evidence or any proof (only a story) it will be hard to determine it as an original piece.
Back in the 80's they didn't had any cellphones with cameras, but they had cameras, my contacts showed me photos of piles of German helmets with black paint that also were found in Czech Republic and were photographed with a simple camera.
If you believe these stars, thats fine, everybody can have his own opinion.
But a story is not a fact, it is just a story.

If you could provide me some photos of these stars in wear or production designs, I would love to see it and add it to the book I'm working on.

Thank you for the "story" , i was part of the "story" at that time and not "heard " of a story ?
Do you have more pics of what was found there by your contacts ? because german CS firemen repainted in black helmets were found very often until let's say 5 years ago on every tourist fleamarket in CZ , so i can imagine somebody took pictures of some , sometimes ? but not in 1987 !
1000's of these helmets came on the market and not only from the Czech republic
More than 30 years ago , it was not an habit to take pictures of everything"possible , no selfies in front of a yellow stars pile !
I don't "believe" these stars , i "know" where they come from because i picked them up myself directly from the source and not through somebody !
This is a fact , not a story invented .
I'm not a Geek looking on the Internet for pictures and i don't collect yellow stars but simply brought them back from where they were stocked for 40 years , since 1945 , with a lot of other stuff a lot more interesting for me and they simply stayed in my boxes for 30 years !
You don't believe me ? fine , no problem for me .
Better to have internet "stories" than testimonies ...
Nick

[Oorlogsspullen]

I don't doubt your story that it was found over there, but only the originality.
After the war it was very common for theaters to make stars for their theater shows because they were hard to find, a lot of them were just thrown away.
For me it is just strange that every manufacturer of the Jewish star is known, but not of this type: What do you think? Where would they be produced? Do you think that these are wartime made and unissued?
A lot of collectors always use the word of 'probably local producer or locally made', but that local producer was always a large printing company for cloth or flags (documented and there is evidence of it), for German, French, Belgian, Dutch and every 'official' star that has been made.

Don't get me wrong, it is good that we have this discussion because there are so much fakers on this material.

Thank you for the "story" , i was part of the "story" at that time and not "heard " of a story ?
Do you have more pics of what was found there by your contacts ? because german CS firemen repainted in black helmets were found very often until let's say 5 years ago on every tourist fleamarket in CZ , so i can imagine somebody took pictures of some , sometimes ? but not in 1987 !
1000's of these helmets came on the market and not only from the Czech republic
More than 30 years ago , it was not an habit to take pictures of everything"possible , no selfies in front of a yellow stars pile !
I don't "believe" these stars , i "know" where they come from because i picked them up myself directly from the source and not through somebody !
This is a fact , not a story invented .
I'm not a Geek looking on the Internet for pictures and i don't collect yellow stars but simply brought them back from where they were stocked for 40 years , since 1945 , with a lot of other stuff a lot more interesting for me and they simply stayed in my boxes for 30 years !
You don't believe me ? fine , no problem for me .
Better to have internet "stories" than testimonies ...
Nick

[beutegermane]

They don’t seem original to me, but I’d love to see some provenance if they would be. There are plenty of photographs of Jewish people wearing the stars so if they are original this wouldn’t be a problem.

[GAMS1]

I don't know who made them , i was not that far but i can tell you they came from Statni Films .
The quality of the printing and the cloth used ( found in 3 variations ) are typical german made , made like POA printed badges : ink , cloth , faded colours .
Statni films also had repro of badges or uniforms to complete their stocks but the difference was more than evident : i do have some WSS shoulder boards from them and you can see from 100m the difference !
Same for Yellow stars : they made some but on a total different fluffy cloth and a bad "local" printing .
I don't have any left , 30 years later and it was not so many actually ...they still had enough originals !
Nick