Oberst Rudel Eichenlaub Telegramm

[Baltic]

Hi Gents,
that is a piece of history...sadly not the the whole grouping but...
Best
Trave Militaria

[Raphael1]

can someone translate it?

[Archi]

Hello !

Certainly an interesting document of great historical value.
Thanks for sharing it !
Is there an explanation for the handwritten entry at the bottom,
with date : 20.12.56 ?

A rough translation could be :
>> To Gen.Kdo. roem. 8. Flieger-Korps (=HQ VIII. Fl.Korps) :
On 14.4.43, the Fuehrer has awarded the Oakleaves to the Knightscross to :
Oberlt. Rudel (#229) (1/Stuka 2), Oberstlt. Hozzel (#230) Stu.Ka.Geschw. Immelmann,
Hptm. Doerffel (#231) I./Schlachtgeschw. 1.
Sent from Luftflottenkommando 4, IIa <<

Best regards,

Archi

[Baltic]

Hello !

Certainly an interesting document of great historical value.
Thanks for sharing it !
Is there an explanation for the handwritten entry at the bottom,
with date : 20.12.56 ?

A rough translation could be :
>> To Gen.Kdo. roem. 8. Flieger-Korps (=HQ VIII. Fl.Korps) :
On 14.4.43, the Fuehrer has awarded the Oakleaves to the Knightscross to :
Oberlt. Rudel (#229) (1/Stuka 2), Oberstlt. Hozzel (#230) Stu.Ka.Geschw. Immelmann,
Hptm. Doerffel (#231) I./Schlachtgeschw. 1.
Sent from Luftflottenkommando 4, IIa <<

Best regards,

Archi

Hi Archi,
it could be (and that is only a guess) the word "erfaßt" with the date December 20th, 1956.....and signature.
Maybe some made a list of the whole Estate in 1956 and put an sign and date on the paper that this telegram is "registered".....
Best
Trave Militaria

[Lionel H.]

My Explanation is whole other : this doc has been registrated ( "erfasst") by the german Archiv (Bundesarchiv / Ba.Ma.) back in 1956. Some were a Stamp on the back, some such signatures. It was then "captured" there later, in Kornelimünster or later in Freiburg i.Br.. Most of those stolen docs have been thrown away from the "Leitz" Ordner where they were kept for the Community. I want to add that this mostly happened back in the 80's and 90's, and I am sure that TRAVE Militaria has nothing to do with this.

[Mobydick]

Hi,

very nice and rare dokument.
In my opinion there is no evidence that the document has ever been stolen.
In many groups of Knight's Cross winners you can also find the telegram about the notification of the award, so why not Rudel ?

Documents that are the property of the military archive having a stamp on it that this document is in the property of the military archive. I know this fact, because I had
a lot of correspondence with the military archives in Germany. Every copy of original dokuments, which I received from the archive for research, having the
stamp.... "Property of Military archive".
I can not see such a stamp of on the telegramm here. The handwritten note ..... "recorded on ...1956"... could also be from the community of the Knight's Cross holders or another authority.

Greetings

[Lionel H.]

Well, our Friend Mobydick needs an Evidence. No problem ! Here is a picture I personnaly took in June 2015 in BA.MA Freiburg. One of the Stamp that you are refering is above (they used several Types), and the handwritten Mention "Erfasst" also there. Same Signature, same pen... This Signature is thousand times to see in the Ba.Ma. I have more example if you want...

If you want an official confirmation of Property, I suggest you to make a scan of the "Rudel" doc and send it to the Archives in Freiburg, you abviously know the Adress

I am not an Expert in German federal Law's about stolen Archives, but I think that, like in many Countries, including USA or France, their Ability to get there Stuff back is not limitated in time.

[Archi]

Hello Lionel and all !

Thank you all for the replies and especially to Lionel many thanks for the very detailed explanation
and the interesting (and convincing) additional example.

Best regards,

Archi

[Baltic]

Hello 708. V.G.D.
after we read your concerns about the origin of the telegram we did some phone calls.
The telegram was bought out of an old collection and could be traced some more steps back. There is no information that this paper was stolen from whatever archive. There is no stamp on the backside.
We know also that some more parts of the “Rudel” estate are in private collector hands. Most of Oberst Rudel`s papers and medals are still in family possession and not in any archive stored. That brings me to the conclusion that the telegram was one day in an archive to get registered or to put it on microfilm and then given back to the owner / family or whoever owned it.
All the best
Trave Militaria

[Lionel H.]

Sure you have appreciated, or everycollector here, or every Family in Germany, to lend documents to the german Bundesarchiv and get it back with a big signature and a Mention "erfasst 1956" on the original.... This explanation is just... well... yours !
Moreover, Rudel lived 1956 in Paraguay, and not sure that is relations with Germany at that time had brought him to lend something at the Bundesarchiv... As I told in my first post, I am convinced you are perfectly honest in this Matter, but after evidence has been given that this Stuff has questionable origin, you could have react differently. That's your decision § your Reputation. Viele Grüsse nach Lübeck.

[Lionel H.]

One more technical point. You write "We know also that some more parts of the “Rudel” estate are in private collector hands. Most of Oberst Rudel`s papers and medals are still in family possession and not in any archive stored"

This Document is not destined to H.U. Rudel, as stated on the 1ste Line "An Generalkommando 8.FLiegerkorps". That is very different from a personal telegram (Fernschreiben) with personal Congratulations (Glückwunschschreiben)... This is a administrative Information for the 8.Flg-Korps that 3 of their Soldiers are decorated with the Oakleaves.... It was then kept by the Unit in his Archive.... and was transfered after the War to the Bundesarchiv.

Saying that this doc is part of Mr.Rudel's personal Estate is wrong, and due to the fact that your german is better than mine, that is also something you can not ignore !

[Paulus_Gun]

Hello 708. V.G.D.
after we read your concerns about the origin of the telegram we did some phone calls.
The telegram was bought out of an old collection and could be traced some more steps back. There is no information that this paper was stolen from whatever archive. There is no stamp on the backside.

And you expect people to admit that they have stolen it? If Lionel is correct about its possible origins then you should call the archive and not some collectors.

[Baltic]

Hi gents,
please dont put us in the line of fire. Like I have written before we are on it. As a result of your hint we will not put it for sale unless everything is clear.
Will take a few more days but as soon as we have more information, we let you know.
Best
Trave Militaria

[tobau]

Sure you have appreciated, or everycollector here, or every Family in Germany, to lend documents to the german Bundesarchiv and get it back with a big signature and a Mention "erfasst 1956" on the original.... This explanation is just... well... yours !
Moreover, Rudel lived 1956 in Paraguay, and not sure that is relations with Germany at that time had brought him to lend something at the Bundesarchiv... As I told in my first post, I am convinced you are perfectly honest in this Matter, but after evidence has been given that this Stuff has questionable origin, you could have react differently. That's your decision § your Reputation. Viele Grüsse nach Lübeck.

This documents was not given out.And yes,i am with 708.V.G.D. ,that this document is a one from 100 000 ? stolen ones from the BDC in the 1980 years.Many years ago the BDC-documents are went in the proberty of the Bundesarchiv.But i have heard that the officials there do respect the ownership of the new "owners" and they will look for this documents and will legitimate repurchase.
A one from the participate militaria Dealers was condemned receiving stolen goods,but he are still in Business.Last week on E-Stand here was also ,for me 100%,an BDC stolen document from Auschwitz with Höß Signature offered.