My latest 4th Pz.Div. Group with Award Doc PAB 25 Bronze... and Questions !

[Lionel H.]

Hi Guys !

Want to present you my latest 4.PD Group. Only 5 Award Docs, this Vet fought and escaped the normal Fate for DAK-Fighters... He joined the 4.PD in Russia, received his Cufftitle "Afrika" there (doc signed by Wilhelm Westermann, KC 1944 and german Cross in Gold 4.44), EK.I (signed GM Betzel), and most of all the PAB in Bronze numbered "25".
This Award signed by Hptm Fritz KELSCH. Kelsch led the Pz.A.A.4 from Sept.44 until March 31st 1945. At this Date, he was KIA in the "Weichselmünde". Kelsch highest Award was the Ehrenblattspange he won Dec.15th 1944.

My first Question to advanced Paper Collectors : The PAB "25" in Silber is scarce, but, quite common in comparison to the PAB "25" Bronze award Doc.... Do you Guys confirmed ? Is it possible to see more PAB 25 Bronze from your collections ?? </P><p><img src="https://cdn04.trixum.de/upload2/3/g/3gId0stnPz6f150859989887P1683.jpg"></p>
<p><img src="https://cdn04.trixum.de/upload2/5/E/5EdKt7YuZhA3150859990132P1683.jpg"></p>
<p><img src="https://cdn03.trixum.de/upload2/1/a/1a2uZ5dsy3Xx150859990514P1683.jpg"></p>
<p><img src="https://cdn02.trixum.de/upload2/I/X/IX6KHqZyu3Bw150859990861P1683.jpg"></p>
<p><img src="https://cdn04.trixum.de/upload2/C/R/CRfPi32hlrmZ150859991227P1683.jpg"></p>

[Lionel H.]

My second Interrogation.... This Guy Willi G. has been awarded the PAB Bronze "25".... In the same Unit, one Month before, same Stamp, same Signature, same "Writer" (see the small "M" after the Date...).... another Guy from the same Unit was awarded the CCC in Silber for 30 CC-Days....

So late as sept.-oct 1944, I have doubts to imagine a clear difference was made between CC-Days and "Panzer-Assault "-Days.... Why then became one Guy a CCC in Silber and the other one a PAB Bronze numbered "25".... All you explanations § opinions in this precise Matter are very welcome . Thanks for your time. Lionel.

[Lionel H.]

Is my Question too complicated... or just fully uninteresting ?

[Wiking44]

I'm not an expert on documents as I only started collecting them about six months ago.

First of all, I've not seen a single PAB Sillver 25 or PAB Bronze 25 for sale on any of the sites I frequent. In fact, even finding a regular PAB Silver has been difficult.

So your definition of 'common' seems to be different than mine. I'm happy to have a regular PAB Silver document. Haven't had near the issue finding PAB Bronze.

I don't have enough insight to even address your other questions. Hope to learn something though.

[Lionel H.]

Danke dir fuer d. Teilnahme a.d. Thread :-)

I wrote "common in comparison". Bronze PAB 25 Award doc. appears to me to be much rarer than PAB Silver 25... But you are right, PAB 25 Silber is not to be find each week...
I personally prefer trust my Friend-Nest to become interesting Stuff than looking too much Websites, but this Nest has been built for many Years with passionated Collectors, even before the "Internet-World", that is for sure an Advantage..

[Angel Farré]

Hi Lionel.

Very nice group you have there and a sure rare.

I have seen only a handful with numbered PABiB, mainly from 23 Panzer Division.

I would say 15 to 1 in a relation between Silver to Bronze ones.

Regarding the awarding the CC and/or numbered PAB the regulations are different and you can see Soldbuchs with two different sheets listing for the soldier CC days or combat days counting for this medals so it is posible to receive both or find in the same unit soldiers with CCC while others received numbered assaults.

Cheers

Angel

[Angel Farré]

Right now I have seen a Soldbuch from a soldier in a pioneer unit with 6 Sturmtäge and 7 Nahmapftäge, some days he qualify for both.

Angel

[Archi]

Hello Lionel !

Excellent group and also a very interesting combination of units !
Thanks for showing (and please keep on doing so !)

I am sorry that I can't help in answering your questions, but I am sure
that others will do !

Best regards,

Archi

[Rise]

I have an PAB doc from the same unit and same date too

Last week recieved me this

IMG_6203.jpg

[schneifelquelle]

wow nice set , many thanks for sharing

[Lionel H.]

Hi Lionel.

Very nice group you have there and a sure rare.

I have seen only a handful with numbered PABiB, mainly from 23 Panzer Division.

I would say 15 to 1 in a relation between Silver to Bronze ones.

Regarding the awarding the CC and/or numbered PAB the regulations are different and you can see Soldbuchs with two different sheets listing for the soldier CC days or combat days counting for this medals so it is posible to receive both or find in the same unit soldiers with CCC while others received numbered assaults.

Cheers

Angel

Thanks Angel. You must be right : 15 vs 1 is probably the quote between both... Thanks for your Imput !

[Lionel H.]

I have an PAB doc from the same unit and same date too

Last week recieved me this

[ATTACH]3949450[/ATTACH]

Thanks Archi, and Schneifelquelle !

WOW Rise... same day attribution.... for such a little Unit, awesome

I have tried to find this "Kahl" among Wearers of high Awards, but at first glance he wasn't...

[Angel Farré]

As always a pleasure to return all the help you give me in collecting.

The most complete group I see with PAB was one to a Pz.A.A. 23 member including Soldbuch, photos, all citations and badges comping directly from the vet.

I don't know why but a lot of 23 Pz.Div. groups with numbered PABs surfaced, more than other units, maybe just luck (people more willing to sell this unit) or the clerk more dutiful than in other units?????

Keep in touch.

Angel

[Lionel H.]

Angel. No, you are right. Some Units - divisional or regimental Level - took more or less seriously the Awards Treatment, the comptability of "PAB'days" or "CCC-Days".... Some were more generous than others in their own definition of what was a CCC-Day or not.... I can only evoque two examples that I personnaly know quite well : The 17.SS-PGD "GvB" was very restrictive in his Award Policy... An EK.II in this Unit is something who really means the Soldier was involved in bitter Fights... An EK.II in my beloved 4th Panzer-Div. belonged to the Sturmgepaeck after some Weeks at the front... Of course, guys from the 4th.Pz.Div. were engaged in an endless List of well known Battles of the erstern Front.... In both PGR.12 and 33, a great importance was given to the CCC Days....and that quite early in the war !! That means that the list from gefr. or Uffz being awarded the CCC in Silber is HUGE !! Moreover, a lot of CCC were posthumously awarded, so.... you see what I mean. I recently discussed with a german Seller who wanted to sell me a PGR.12 Group with CCC Silber, asking a "Phantasy-Price", arguing about the rarity from this Award... He was probably somebit irritated by the large laugh in my Face... when [I] told him to keep this Kind of Stories for someone else...

[Saint-Exupéry]

nice group Lionel