Hitler, Himmler, Goering signatures

[DooseHoward]

I would love to hear some more opinions and possible explanations for the point that I raised earlier with the different pressure points in the signature.

[max history]

In a printed signature - as opposed to a handwritten ink or autopen signature - minute light areas can be seen. These are caused by tiny air bubbles present when the plate is pressed flat onto the surface. In the Hitler signature illustrated at #14, these air bubble spots can be seen throughout the entire printed signature. In order to illustrate this, they are also visible in the black printed "19" and the word "Reichskanzler" above the signature.
Handwritten ink signatures have crossover points. These are more obvious under magnification.
It is quite common for autopen signatures to exhibit slight variation in the thickness of ink applied and when one considers that it is a machine that has applied the ink, this is not surprising.
As has been said previously on numerous occasions, it is always preferable to physically examine signatures, but generally it is a simple matter to determine whether or not a signature is printed.
Max.

[DooseHoward]

In a printed signature - as opposed to a handwritten ink or autopen signature - minute light areas can be seen. These are caused by tiny air bubbles present when the plate is pressed flat onto the surface. In the Hitler signature illustrated at #14, these air bubble spots can be seen throughout the entire printed signature. In order to illustrate this, they are also visible in the black printed "19" and the word "Reichskanzler" above the signature.
Handwritten ink signatures have crossover points. These are more obvious under magnification.
It is quite common for autopen signatures to exhibit slight variation in the thickness of ink applied and when one considers that it is a machine that has applied the ink, this is not surprising.
As has been said previously on numerous occasions, it is always preferable to physically examine signatures, but generally it is a simple matter to determine whether or not a signature is printed.
Max.

Bill Shea has said that the signatures are 100% ink, which I have been taking as fact because I don't have them in hand. I do understand what you are saying though and will certainly bring it up when I talk to them tomorrow. Thank you very much for the info!

[Jeremy]

compare

While I agree with others that in the hand is the best way to tell, I'll post another Hitler sig from a later document with the one being discussed here.

Below is an image of that later hitler sig with a printed one. The 'surges' in ink flow are not evident in the facsimile sig as has been commented on.

For consideration...

[Jeremy]

hand

Both hand-signed?

[DooseHoward]

While I agree with others that in the hand is the best way to tell, I'll post another Hitler sig from a later document with the one being discussed here.

Below is an image of that later hitler sig with a printed one. The 'surges' in ink flow are not evident in the facsimile sig as has been commented on.

For consideration...

I believe you are agreeing with me? Either way, thank you very much for the input and the great examples that you posted. I have decided to just pay for authentication through PSA to hopefully squash this issue. They will examine Hitler and Goring's signature and I should have an answer to the question in about a month.

Thanks for the input!

[Jeremy]

hmm

Top one (from 1937) clearly printed. Bottom one which is being discussed here is...?

[Jeremy]

Compare

Hand-signed, from 15 Oct 1935, 5 days later than the one under discussion.

[DooseHoward]

The discussion of this signature and the set can now be put to rest. I have decided my course of action. Thank you all who commented on it and I've learned a ton.

[hucks216]

Just out of curiosity, if the authentication service day they believe the Hitler signature to be a genuine hand signed example what will you believe? Them because you've paid for that service even if they get it wrong or your own eyes by looking at the comparison in post 22 above where both printed signatures even have the same tiny blip on the curve of the upper loop on the Hill?

[hucks216]

....the same tiny blip on the curve of the upper loop on the Hill?

That should of said upper loop of the H. Autocorrect is a pain sometimes!

[Mil-Archive]

Just out of curiosity, if the authentication service day they believe the Hitler signature to be a genuine hand signed example what will you believe? Them because you've paid for that service even if they get it wrong or your own eyes by looking at the comparison in post 22 above where both printed signatures even have the same tiny blip on the curve of the upper loop on the Hill?

That's a very good point in my opinion. Also worth noting that many collectors would disregard those kinds of American style paid authentication services if it ever came to re-selling at a later date.

[DooseHoward]

I think I've decided to pass on the whole set, and will certainly not pay for the service to authenticate the signature that I am now almost sure is autopen. I like the Himmler documents, so I'll make an offer based on that, but I doubt it will be taken. Again, thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread.

[max history]

I think I've decided to pass on the whole set, and will certainly not pay for the service to authenticate the signature that I am now almost sure is autopen.

If you are referring to the Hitler signature in #14, it is not autopen - it is printed. This is clearly shown by the residue air bubbles. These are never present in handwritten or autopen signatures. Thicker areas of ink can be left by the printing process. That aside, I believe Hitler did not use autopen as early as 1935. His signatures were either handwritten or printed at that time.
Max.

[DooseHoward]

If you are referring to the Hitler signature in #14, it is not autopen - it is printed. This is clearly shown by the residue air bubbles. These are never present in handwritten or autopen signatures. Thicker areas of ink can be left by the printing process. That aside, I believe Hitler did not use autopen as early as 1935. His signatures were either handwritten or printed at that time.
Max.

Thanks for the clarification. But my main point was the fact that it was not hand written as stated.