Rare Photo Report Excecution in Russia / Crime of War ?

[Ohlau]

He could be also normal officer, commander of bunker's crew.

[eldenwaff]

I think "war crimes" is far fetched and unsustainable, all armies including allies executed soldiers and civilians alike for any number of reasons.
Not to excuse/rationalize the well known German excesses, but for all we know, these guys might have had it coming, really no way to tell from these interesting pics.

[Ohlau]

I think "war crimes" is far fetched and unsustainable, all armies including allies executed soldiers and civilians alike for any number of reasons.
Not to excuse/rationalize the well known German excesses, but for all we know, these guys might have had it coming, really no way to tell from these interesting pics.

?! You must be kidding Sir. Events from photos are clear, killing unarmed POWs is beyond any doubts and dispute.

[jmark]

Thanks Guys for your Imput. Thereafter for Jason, the best close up I was able to do, to determine if the Guy is a Politruk or not. By the Way, there was some divisions where this Order was not applied, and Politruk threated correctly as PoW, a friend of mine, KC Holder from the 290th ID testified it. Follow blind an order or not, that is/was a courageous Decision in the War, the kind of decision which makes you, especially if you are defeated at the end, a war criminel or not.... And even if he is a Politruk, it seems that he was not alone to be executed on that tragical Day....

I can't seen any stars on his sleeve, but his tunic has a huge hole in it, as if something has been torn off.

Jason

[Enzian]

#7

Hello;

In photo #7, has the identity been determined of the throng(s) of men behind
the foreground?

[compressore]

I think "war crimes" is far fetched and unsustainable, all armies including allies executed soldiers and civilians alike for any number of reasons.
Not to excuse/rationalize the well known German excesses, but for all we know, these guys might have had it coming, really no way to tell from these interesting pics.

1. the scenes does not look like a "proper" (if this word can be used) execution after a court martial....and even if, we all know the quality and purpose of those in the Russian campaign.
2. that other armies have done it is not an excuse in any way
3."Not to excuse/rationalize the well known German excesses, but...
"The "but" says it all...you are excusing/rationalize....


Regards
Christian

[eldenwaff]

?! You must be kidding Sir. Events from photos are clear, killing unarmed POWs is beyond any doubts and dispute.

POW's are "unarmed" by default.
You act as though you were there, they could have been partisans . "Oh, but some have Russian uniforms !", like there weren't 100,000's uniforms a guerrilla could have picked up and put on.
Plenty of German POW's were killed by the allies, and civilians as well. I think you are just trying to sensationalize these pics for future estand sale. They are interesting and historic no doubt; but "crime of war" is sheer theatrics.

[compressore]

Why mixing ?

Plenty of German POW's were killed by the allies, and civilians as well. .....

Why you bring this up all the time ?
This is not the topic of this discussion. And as said before, at no point an excuse...

Let try to discuss some "facts" we may can get out of the pictures:

From you point of view: Does this pictures looks like an execution of partisans after a court martial ?
IMO not,...it is too un-organized.

Maybe some of our Russian WAF members or other with knowledge can comment on the uniforms an other aspects

Regards
Christian

[Lionel H.]

Why you bring this up all the time ?
This is not the topic of this discussion. And as said before, at no point an excuse...

Let try to discuss some "facts" we may can get out of the pictures:

From you point of view: Does this pictures looks like an execution of partisans after a court martial ?
IMO not,...it is too un-organized.

Maybe some of our Russian WAF members or other with knowledge can comment on the uniforms an other aspects

Regards
Christian

Thanks Christian. I perfectly agree with that. I have NO interest at all to debate - philosophically, politically - with anybody. I am completely aware that the german army was by far not the only Army executing People. And we can discuss and dispute 100pages just imagining the reason why these Soldiers are "erschossen", it won't bring us anywhere...

The subject is, due to the fact they are here on this Forum people which are experts in different Matters : uniforms, bunkers, russian Front, etc... trying to deduct "FACTS" permitting to know more :
- When the Event took Place ?
- At which Place of the Front ?
- Who are the Soldiers involved ?

I agree due to the german equipment, that these are probably EARLY Pics. Nobody speaks about the Soil and Vegetation. The Pictures 18, 11,13 are clearly showing this is like "Sand".... The Photo 13 shows also clearly the "Bunker" at the rear of the scene... Are such constructions common on the whole russian Front - I personnaly don't think so - If not, could the supposition made before "Stalinlinie" be confirmed ?

Kind regards to all. Lionel.

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

Thanks Christian. I perfectly agree with that. I have NO interest at all to debate - philosophically, politically - with anybody. I am completely aware that the german army was by far not the only Army executing People. And we can discuss and dispute 100pages just imagining the reason why these Soldiers are "erschossen", it won't bring us anywhere...

The subject is, due to the fact they are here on this Forum people which are experts in different Matters : uniforms, bunkers, russian Front, etc... trying to deduct "FACTS" permitting to know more :
- When the Event took Place ?
- At which Place of the Front ?
- Who are the Soldiers involved ?

I agree due to the german equipment, that these are probably EARLY Pics. Nobody speaks about the Soil and Vegetation. The Pictures 18, 11,13 are clearly showing this is like "Sand".... The Photo 13 shows also clearly the "Bunker" at the rear of the scene... Are such constructions common on the whole russian Front - I personnaly don't think so - If not, could the supposition made before "Stalinlinie" be confirmed ?

Kind regards to all. Lionel.

IMHO an early stage of the Barbarossa operation....uniform, soil and vegetation make me sure that shots were taken during end of summer time or very early autumn. The bunker photo seems really be done as propaganda that's why I suppose that period is what i written before...

[Edward]

Note Russian POW in photo # 12 is wearing dark trousers associated with either an Uffz. or Officer rank. Can see this very clearly in the # 19 enlargement. His tunic appears to be of the Soviet mod. M35/40 pattern. His buttoned right tunic pocket also has something placed inside of it. He could have been a Kommissar, or from one of the various internal security units.

Photo #7 appears to be of other rank Soviet soldiers. Hard to tell. Possibly wearing low quarter boots with puttees, or they could be just boots. Either would be correct for 1941.

Photo # 3 is a soldier with his MG 34 and attached bipod. He could very well be one of the two soldiers shown lying next to there MG 34's in photos # 13 & 14.

Photo # 6 shows that work on the bunker was not completed. It could very well have been part of the Molotov Line which was a belt of fortified areas built during 1940-41 in the newly occupied Western regions from the Balitc Sea to the Carpathian Mountains (eg. Baltic States, Eastern Poland, and Bessarabia). It could be just simply a case of construction not yet completed due to the invasion.

Vegetation appears to be of a largely scrub pine forest variety with sandy soil. Not untypical of areas within the occupied Soviet Western Frontier in 1941.

[Ohlau]

POW's are "unarmed" by default.
You act as though you were there, they could have been partisans . "Oh, but some have Russian uniforms !", like there weren't 100,000's uniforms a guerrilla could have picked up and put on.
Plenty of German POW's were killed by the allies, and civilians as well. I think you are just trying to sensationalize these pics for future estand sale. They are interesting and historic no doubt; but "crime of war" is sheer theatrics.

Wake up man a stop talking BS

[Ohlau]

Not untypical of areas within the occupied Soviet Western Frontier in 1941.

Coniferous forests /with poor pines on sands / are VERY typical landscape for eastern part of Poland / Western Russia

[eldenwaff]

Why you bring this up all the time ?
This is not the topic of this discussion. And as said before, at no point an excuse...

I don't bring this up "all the time", it happens to be a fact that execution in the field during WW2 was not rare for any side.

Let try to discuss some "facts" we may can get out of the pictures:

From you point of view: Does this pictures looks like an execution of partisans after a court martial ?
IMO not,...it is too un-organized.

Really ? And how much organization would you think it takes to shoot a couple of captured bandits ? You can read whatever you want from the pics and does not make your guess any better than mine or anyone elses.

We don't even know anyone pictured was shot, you infer that from seeing what appears to be another dead body lying in the vicinity. 2 unidentified men are seen standing completely unrestrained, not tied up in any fashion, and the OP assumes "These 2 Soldiers seems to wait for the Death with a great COURAGE !"
That does not make any sense at all. Why would the Germans shoot one of their comrades and leave 2 standing there talking it over ?

[Edward]

From the content of the photos and at the time they were likely taken I would have serious doubts that the Soviet soldiers shown were "bandits" (eg. partisans). It would not be surprising either if the photos are an example of the Kommissarbefehl being carried out in 1941. It cannot be questioned that both the order and such actions were indeed carried out many times from the the opening of Barbarossa.