Take a look at this, Is this part of the famous grouping that got seperated? Or am I thinking of Otto Baum?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...508703106&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...508703106&rd=1
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You're thinking of Baum. I have my doubts about this - which has just surfaced from someone with no feedback (member since about a week ago) and which is available for a mere 900 pounds... Of course I could be wrong...better pictures would tell the tale.
Mike -
Hello
The pic is no longer available. Do you save it by chance just to have a look ?
Regards
DenisComment
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No, unfortunately not. Sorry Denis.Comment
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Here it is. I happened to save it. nickj4164 was the seller, maybe he has better ones. Hope this helps.Comment
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I did ask for some but nothing ever came through!!Regards
Si
SWS Collection 01-14 Images Copyright.Comment
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Hello
Thanks guys. As far as i can see, judging by the low quality photo provided by the seller, the KC preliminary certificate is a poor fake.
The signatory should be General Bodewin Keitel (Wilhelm's brother). On the document shown, the sribble is everything except Keitel's one !!
The fakers are most of time too lazy to counterfeit known signatures and they usually prefer to create one to avoid headaches.
BEst regards
DenisComment
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Me again.
I have forgotten the most obvious point about the allegedly Kumm certificates.
This kind of document was not used before mid-43.
And Kumm was awarded the KC on February 16, 1942.
DenisComment
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Hello
Unfortunately, I don't own Mr. Yerger's book but I would be very pleased to see the page in question.
Although the seller has said the document was pictured in this book, I stay on my opinion for the moment. I hope somebody will be able to show the page from Mr. Yerger's book.
Best regards
DenisComment
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Hello again,
First of all, Luc, many thanks for scanning and posting the Kumm's certificate displayed in Mr. Yerger's book.
Based upon what I can see, I am still very perplexed, to say the least, about the authenticity of this document.
Several things raise a bad feeling :
- The typewriter used is the so-called Führerschreibmaschine ( with a larger type face) which was not used on February, 1942 (certificates bearing the FSM type face have begun to appear at the beginning of 1944)
- As previously said, the certificate itself is the latest type (the "5c" type) which was used from early 1944 onwards. This pattern is the most encountered type among the various pattern of the Heer/WSS certificates. Anyway, latin script certificates (the "Type 5" sery) was not used before mid-1943.
- there is always the possibility that this certificate was a "Zweitschrift" (ie a replacement certificate for the original lost one) but duplicates are usually clearly identified as such and bear the new document date of issue (which is not the case here).
I need to check some other points before elaborating further. I will have a look this evening in my books to give my definitive opinion (and only my opinion) tomorrow.
Best regards
DenisComment
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Hello
I have looked carefully the KC certificate :
To what I said yesterday, I will add the following things :
- The unit denomination is not correct : in February, 1942, the "Der Führer" regiment was called : SS Rgt. (Mot.) "Der Führer". This was the name between 21/12/40 and 09/11/42. After this latter date and until 22/10/43, it was called SS Pz.Gre.Rgt. "Der Führer". Its last name was SS Pz.Gre.Rgt. 4 "Der Führer" from 22/10/43 until the end of war.
- the rubber stamp shown on this document has never been used on Heer/WSS KC preliminary certificates. However, this is a good attempt to simulate an official one. At first glance, it looks rather convincing.
- the typewriter used to make this document is not the so called and famous Führerschreibmaschine. Several letters and figures are slightly different. Nevertheless, they are very close and this is really amazing to see.
For all these points (as well as those ones mentioned yesterday), I think this document is a fake. A rather clever reproduction when you consider the type writer and the rubber stamp. A stange one when you look the signature.
Best regards
DenisComment
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Hi Denis,Originally posted by Denis
While you seem to make valid comments on this document, can you honestly say that this is a fake document?, was it carved in stone that the preliminary KC documents was only awarded after a certain date? the reason I am asking is, I've known this document since the early 1980's, It was brought round to my apartment along with Kumm's complete SS file, which had just recently come from a major city in Germany,(I think you know where I mean).Unfortunately at the time it was far too expensive for me to buy, but I did photocopy his preliminary KC doc and his fragebogen. And this is the same document I photocopied. Please dont think for one minute that I'm trying to demean you,as my knowledge of paperwork is miniscule,but hand on heart that document was in Kumm's file.
Another point I hasten to add , is I was in Lenggries when Mark (Yerger) gave the proofs of Kumm's book to Kumm to check over before publishing, and I cant remember Kumm dismissing that document.
Lastly the document appears to have been signed by Schmundt, who at that time was a Generalmajor, thats the reason he's handwritten it.
Regards HiagComment
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