AH & Goering Signatures For Review

[Jeremy]

Furthermore, rather than using an autopen, (fair enough to dismiss the autopen given slight variations evident etc) how about the use of a polygraph type device which enabled two fountain pens to be used, one by hand and the other a simultaneous 'copy'... I expect this example would allow for slight variations but strong similarities...

[glock26]

hi jeremy,

the "polygraph" idea does not make any sense to me at all?

on one hand you are claiming that the signatures are too similar over a number of documents and over a period of time - but surely this "polygraph" machine would only make one copy at a time?

we know they had the signature pre - printed on some documents.
we know they used an autopen signature on some documents.
we know they used signature stamps on some documents.
we know some signatures are hand signed on documents.

i just fail to see why they would go to the trouble of making some super duper 3rd reich wunderwaffen signature facsimile machine when they have stamps, pre-prints and perfectly good autopens available.

there are a lot of these award documents out there signed by various people - hitler, himmler, blomberg etc etc.

do you believe none of these documents are actually hand signed?


cheers, del.

[Jeremy]

hi del,
No, I am not making any sweeping claims - please dont read that into my posts. I point to two examples regarding the 'g' analysis for two documents in question. I am focusing on these specific documents to try and understand how they can be so similar.

I noticed that Goering handsigned the attached 'Im namen des...' docs for luftwaffe personnel.

I wonder why he signed for other non-military people using his full name... my issue is with these particular documents and whether he did actually hand sign them as I just find them too strikingly similar. I assume Il Brillante's document is one of these.

I am not suggesting a special bells and whistles machine was invented. That polygraph is 19th Century - i am just trying to explore how fountain pens could be used to 'copy' sigs. I agree that autopen is not involved but I am not happy at this stage with just accepting the full name sigs on the particular documents in question are all hand signed.

Over to you for your thoughts...
Cheers
Jeremy

[glock26]

hi jeremy,

that's an interesting observation. i wonder if that is the case for all of these awards.

goering signature for military personnel

and hermann goering signature for non military

i don't really have much more to add to the debate. it is still my opinion that these signatures are made by hand and not some other method.

further than that - without the use of a time machine - i guess we will never know for sure.


cheers, del.

[glock26]

another one

as requested Jeremy. signature from my other award doc.


cheers, del.

[Jeremy]

Thanks del.

I am coming round to the view they are hand signed as I can't come up with a counter explanation for the nature of the sigs...

Jeremy

[Jeremy]

different one

And then there is this 'In namen des..." document, del, with what looks much like a printed sig version... sorry, i don't have a better quality scan of the sig.
Jeremy

[glock26]

hi jeremy,

not sure about the last doc you posted - too small a scan to be certain - although at first glance it does appear to be one of the pre printed examples.

i appreciate your comments above regarding the hand signed examples and have enjoyed our discussions about these.

i have come to the conclusion that autographs are a very subjective issue and that it all comes down to opinion in the end.

so everything i have stated is, as always - in my humble opinion.

i hope that our discussions about these and the demonstations of the different types and examples can at least assist other members from being duped by pre printed, stamped and autopen examples, being passed off as originals.

hope we can continue this discussion at a later date when more examples come to light.


all the best, del.

[kahle33]

Not to bring this back, but it is now plain as day that this stuff is done by some type of machine. There is absolutely, no way that someone can hand sign that exact. Even the ink distribution is nearly perfect.

Especially given that Goring signature, when actually signed by him was all over the place.

Its machine done. A lot of people have "Goring" signatures that they paid hundreds of dollars for that he never got within 100 feet of.

[BrianK]

IMO the first Goring signature is not handwritten. Call it autopen, printed or fax. But not real.

[Jeremy]

hitler

The first Goring is not printed or facsimile or stamp. It's either hand-signed or machine signed by fountain pen IMO.

I take your point Kahle33. But how do you account for the differences in the two signatures? It is difficult to account for the notable similarities and, yet, slight differences and the nature of the ink flow being like a hand signature (according to Max). And to add to the discussion, look at these two Hitler sigs. The same thing as we have seen for Goring... only more identical in nature for the two Hitler signatures IMO.

[BrianK]

Hand signed by a robot's hand.