AH & Goering Signatures For Review

[kahle33]

There is no way that stuff is hand signed. No one can sign their name exactly the same twice with very little difference.

Especially when you consider that real Goring examples are all over the place in terms of how they look. He never signs the same way twice. Look at Hamilton's book, he has one of the Autopens in there, the rest are hand signed examples and they look nothing like the autopen. Not in the 1920's, 30's or 40's. Never.

While I understand the point of uneven pressure, he must have had some pen that applied uneven pressure.

I got burned really bad by a Goring signature that was his autopen. I paid $500 for something that looked like uneven ink, and the truth is, its a piece of junk. Its not worth $50. It was an expensive lesson to learn and my example......

Looks EXACTLY like the examples being posted here. It was also confirmed by Bill from Alexander (who is one of the best in the business) to be some type of autopen. Again, Goring didn't sign that many documents.

Finally, ask yourself, for a guy who had tons of speed with his sitnature, would he really draw a very SLOWWWW "G" at the end of his name?

[kahle33]

Another Goring autopen. I call this one Autopen #2.

[glock26]

post your example and i'll give you my opinion.

did you read any of my post?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=goring


cheers, del.

[kahle33]

Here it shows up again on a photo Autopen #2

[kahle33]

post your example and i'll give you my opinion.

did you read any of my post?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=goring


cheers, del.

Yep. I did read, and I will post my example in a little bit. Thanks.

[kahle33]

Autopen #3, or maybe this is just some kind of printed example? But I've seen it show up on numerous documents.

(I'll post the one I own when I get a proper photo of it)

[glock26]

Autopen #2

i would say your so called Autopen #2 is a printed facsimile.

common to see it on award documents.

see attached pic.

not familiar with your Autopen #3 - give me a bit of time and i'll have a look.


cheers, del.

[glock26]

Autopen #2

another example of Autopen #2

again - printed imho.


cheers, del.

[max history]

Correct. These are printed examples, not autopen.
Max.

[max history]

No one can sign their name exactly the same twice with very little difference.

???? How can exactly the same have a little difference?!!

While I understand the point of uneven pressure, he must have had some pen that applied uneven pressure.

Are you serious? It’s the hand that applies uneven pressure, not the pen. A machine applies direct constant pressure at the same level and that is the universally accepted method used by the World and it’s mother to identify autopen examples, not similarity which is too haphazard.

Again, Goring didn't sign that many documents.

Wrong, I’m afraid. Göring signed thousands of documents, not only as President of Prussia, President of the Reichstag, but as Chief of the Luftwaffe. Otherwise, why would he then employ an autopen to carry out this task as the numbers got too great?

Finally, ask yourself, for a guy who had tons of speed with his signature, would he really draw a very SLOWWWW "G" at the end of his name?

Yes. This is not unusual. You seem to forget that all autopen signatures are created from original handwritten signatures in the first place, so he must have signed that way!!

You have your opinion, as do others. I have mine, as do others. Yours is based solely on strong similarity, whilst mine is based upon pure physics. Without physical examination of an example, no amount of comparison examples can be posted here that will change my opinion. So, I’m sorry, but once again, we must agree to disagree.
Regards,
Max.

[kahle33]

Here is mine. I would love for it to be real. Sadly, I know it is not. Because below it is from Charles Hamilton's book. There is no possible way for Goring to sign just like that; many times.

So given small differences and uneven ink distribution, one must attribute that to some special autopen Goring had. Maybe it shook a bit different each time.

[kahle33]

Thanks Max, I appreciate the reply and good discussion. Yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It does not pass the logic test IMO that Goring signed his name so many times for so many years with so many similarities. Then to find examples that are essentially just last name scribbled or full name signed very fast with tons of differences.

I think by posting these real examples courtesy of Charles Hamilton it becomes quite clear that it isn't logical at all. They look nothing at all like those neat, clean, almost identical signatures seen on promotion documents that I have to believe are obviously some type of autopen.

[kahle33]

glock26, thanks for posting the images!

[glock26]

you're welcome kahle33.

in regards to the one you posted above - i would agree that that sig is an Autopen example.

compare it to the examples i posted in my thread and you will see what i mean.


cheers, del.

[Jeremy]

Yes, I am enjoying this discussion, too. I accept all that is said about autopens in terms of the physical aspects and that the signatures would be identical in terms of what is broadly known about autopen operation.

However, like kahle33, I have an open mind about the possibility of some signature device being used for signing the documents in question. One that is from the period which uses a fountain pen nib and is rudimentary and unstable enough to create slight variations (I know, I know Max and glock26, just bear with me on this)...

I find it difficult to believe that in Oct 1939 and Nov 1939, Goering produced two signatures by hand with the end 'g' which illustrate striking similarities as I indicate in the image - shape at top left and end of ink flow on right. Rather than agree to disagree, I prefer to explore this more...