Funny Göring telegram sold for $ 55.000

[Dietrich Maerz]

The text in the funkspruch is not of good Grman language style and grammar and it is not what you would expect from a clear thinking person.

Christian,

I think the biggest mistake here - and one can observe that a lot - is that things of the past are judged with the eyes and mindset of today. Today less commata are used and today the sentences might sound strange, BUT that Funkspruch is not from today!
That is were most of judgements go wrong. We cannot look for an example that fits our understanding and that is why my "De Bello Gallico" is far closer to the Funkspruch as anything considered "goog grammar" today!

Dietrich

[ODW]

The first two sentences are normal "Beamten/Juristen Deutsch".
Yes, a bit odd. But like mentioned it´s a Funkspruch.
For a letter which he dictated to his secretary it would be weird. But not for a written down Funkspruch.

Was ich in diesen schwersten Stunden meines Lebens für Sie empfinde, das wissen Sie und kann ich durch Worte nicht ausdrücken.

I can´t spot any serious misspelling?

[Weweslburg]

Dietrich, bei allem Respekt, aber Stoiber ist doch absolut kein Maßstab !!! Bezüglich der verwirrenden Sätze dieses Funkspruchs, Du als Deutscher solltest doch wissen, daß - gerade der erste Satz - mit all´den Kommas nciht korrekt ist. Ich habe nun in diesem Zusammenhang "drei" meiner besten Freunde gefragt. Zwei sind Realschullehrer und einer Oberstudienrat an einem Gymnasium. Alle drei haben dieselbe Meinung wie ich. Deshalb: Göring, setzen, sechs !!!

I will not comment on the document itself since I do not have enough information regarding the overall topic of possible forgery.
However, as a German with a very solid and long understanding of the German language I am not aware of any German grammar rule which limits the use of commata in composing German sentences. I am sure if I would take my time I would find legit German sentences with far more than five, the famous Schachtelsätze.(I had to use more than five everytime in translations of De Bello Gallico from Latin to German.) Maybe nowadays with some new political rules it is "verboten" to use more than 2 or 3, but not in my time and not in the books I have.

I also do not really see a great problem with the wording nor with the alleged mistakes (which are attributable to the one who typed the Funkspruch, not Göring. We do not know his level of proficiency in the final days of the Third Reich). I am not a Third Reich dealer and don't live in Germany anymore, but I am really with Markus here. To dismiss this Funkspruch based on the analysis of "Wewelsburg" would be in my opinion not very solid. There are a lot of legitimate documents of the Third Reich which would need to be dismissed also, because of strange sentences, typos, and too much commatas.

But I agree on one topic mentioned: non-German fakers make terrible mistakes in fake documents because the German language is not an easy one. And a huge amount of non-German speaking collectors fall for it day in and ay out.

The Erlass-topic has already be explained by max history, no need to to it again.


As an add-on a sentence of the German politician Stoiber (a Bavarian with a very soldi education):

"Es muss zu schaffen sein, meine Damen und Herren, wenn ich die CDU ansehe, die Repräsentanten dieser Partei an der Spitze, in den Ländern, in den Kommunen, dann bedarf es nur noch eines kleinen Sprühens sozusagen in die gludernde Lot, in die gludernde Flut, dass wir es schaffen können und deswegen in die lodernde Flut, wenn ich sagen darf und deswegen meine Damen und Herren."

Nine commata .... and if I would look I would find sentences with more, even far more!

[Weweslburg]

Markus, I will of course not publish here my name, address or phone number. If you search a document, book, photo, let me know and I will try to find one in my depot.

Just a quick one 'Weweslburg' (misspelled acronym):

You say you are a longtime dealer, handling thousands of documents:

What is:

Your company's name?
Your name?
Telephone number of your business?
Website?
Legal address?
USt /Tax I.D. Number?

Cheers,
Markus

[ODW]

Ask your teacher friends if it´s right to place a space before question or exclamation marks. ;-)
btw. are teachers no benchmark today, look at the "Bachelorette" on RTL. :-)

[frankandfrank]

IQ of Göring = 138

(Gilbert, G. M.: Nuremberg Diary. New York: Signet Book 1947, p. 34; Wechsler-Bellevue IQ)

[markus]

Markus, I will of course not publish here my name, address or phone number. If you search a document, book, photo, let me know and I will try to find one in my depot.

Sorry, you mention you are a dealer and so I figured there was a way to do business with you.

Next year a formal Swords document is (any branch) on my wish list.

This year I'm already well covered.

Gruss aus Nürnberg!

Markus

[Dietrich Maerz]

Are you serious? Two Middle School and one High School teacher should be the judges of this Funkspruch? There is no rule in the German grammar how many commata can be used in a sentence! If three teachers with today's viewpoint claim to be the judges about the historical document and its commata than I am no longer surprised about the state of the education in Germany!
(And why do you put the "drei" in quotation marks? Is that also part of the new rules of grammar in Germany?)

Fact is this: To judge this document on the basis of todays grammar rules ( and non-existing at that!) is complete nonsense, is unscientific and a result of the current Zeitgeist! There needs to be more flesh on the bone than just the opinion of "three" teachers!

[compressore]

Hi,

with all respect, the text is a bit weird and not what I would expect.
I know what you mean, Dietrich, when you talsk about "Zeitgeist"
But if you read "old" German texts they sound "old fashioned" and "unusual" but they sounds still "right" and they have the right "language melody" (sorry, I can not explain it better)
This funkspruch text sounds not right if you read it...it is confuse and there are mistakes in it.
I am currently at home in vacation and I have let read it by my father. He is in his 80ties, so went to school at the time this text was written. He needed to read it several times until he got it (no, its not because he is old).

Get me right here: I do not say the text is not from Goering...but it is partially confuse and wrong !!
Yes, he had a high IQ. But it is historically correct and proven that his thinking was not clear at those late days. He got back is "brilliant" IQ after he was able to get rid of his addiction during his prison time in Nuremberg. Text made in haste, under pressure ? Who knows !

Read for example the "capitulation" telegram from Doenitz. That is a clear and understandable text.

Regards
Christian

[Dietrich Maerz]

I do not know whether this Funkspruch is original or not. Nobody here knows, but the historical background and the provenance speaks for it to be genuine. Also the historical context and the resulting actions against Göring, as well as Hitler's documented reaction are proof of it.

All I want to get across is that it is not scientific or correct to condemn anything out of todays perspective. Somebody doesn't like the amount of commata, another doesn't know the preceeding decrees, three teachers are also not happy with the grammar and you father ( no offense at all!) finds it confusing.

Based on this type and style of judgment anybody and everybody could dismiss any historical document. Like some stupid Neo-nazis do with the Wannsee Protokoll.

That is all I am saying. If people here think that this is a forgery, they should bring more than "strange German" and "too many commas" to the discussion. That is not how it works in serious circles (unless, of course, the German is completely out of wack. Which it is not at all, considering the time, the circumstances, the people involved, ...)

Dietrich

[Weweslburg]

Hi Markus, ich wußte nicht dass Du aus Nürnberg bist....dachte, Du bist ein Ami. Was genau suchst oder sammelst Du ? Ich habe jede Menge Dokumente in einem Lager und kann gerne mal nachsehen oder meine KUmpel fragen. Am Mittwoch bekomme ich wieder einen großen Nachlaß aus einer Wohnungsauflkösung, auch SS Gruß aus München.

Sorry, you mention you are a dealer and so I figured there was a way to do business with you.

Next year a formal Swords document is (any branch) on my wish list.

This year I'm already well covered.

Gruss aus Nürnberg!

Markus

[F L Clemens]

Hello all,
I am curious why no one questions the classification level of this document. It is a message from the Number 2 to the Number 1 on the question of succession and yet it is only classified "Geheim"? That is the lowest level of classification. Would it not be "Fuehrersache" or at least "Geheime Kommandesache" with handling instructions of "Nur durch Offizier"?? Think about it.

[markus]

Hi Markus, ich wußte nicht dass Du aus Nürnberg bist....dachte, Du bist ein Ami. Was genau suchst oder sammelst Du ? Ich habe jede Menge Dokumente in einem Lager und kann gerne mal nachsehen oder meine KUmpel fragen. Am Mittwoch bekomme ich wieder einen großen Nachlaß aus einer Wohnungsauflkösung, auch SS Gruß aus München.

Moin -

Nürnberg ist nur Urlaub zur Zeit. Bin Deutscher, wohne aber im Ausland.
Meine Interessen in Sachen Dokumente sind 'LAH' und hoehere RK Doks. Bin leider sehr waehlerisch/launisch.

Habe uebrigens nichts gegen ruppige Diskussionen, aber mich heute von dem anderen Kollegen hier etwas bezichtigen/unterstellen zu lassen, dass hab' ich echt nicht noetig. Daher ist fuer mich hier Schluss, bevor's noch bunter wird.

Gruss nach München!

Markus

[Brian George]

The odd "flow" of the message might have to do with the manner in which it was sent. When you send something via Morse Code, there's a tendency to shorten things to make it easier to send. Add to that a stressed out operator sending around 60 WPM (yeah they were that fast) and a receiver not getting the whole thing and having to plug text into the gaps, and you could get what you see here.

[Simon O.]

The odd "flow" of the message might have to do with the manner in which it was sent. When you send something via Morse Code, there's a tendency to shorten things to make it easier to send. Add to that a stressed out operator sending around 60 WPM (yeah they were that fast) and a receiver not getting the whole thing and having to plug text into the gaps, and you could get what you see here.

It wasn't sent in clear text, the shortening will have happened at the encoding phase.