Funny Göring telegram sold for $ 55.000

[Jeremy]

So what is your specific support for your opinion, Weweslburg, in response to Markus's info?

[compressore]

just do not bother....

Thanks for your concern, but if one doesn't stand up for his principles, he should should shut up and sit down.

I'm done with this thread. Nasty, mean-spirited posts from the start, ie: DF's comment: "Looks like $55k worth of rubbish to me."

No wonder WAF has lost so many talented contributors.

Hi,
maybe you should act like other dealers. Just do not answer or involved in discussions on your items. The market itself and the educated collectors will judge on your offerings, your expertise etc.
Have you seen that for example Weitze is getting involved on post on his items ? Never, as he does not bother and does not have the time to "fight" for something which in the end is not worth (for him).

After I wrote you a time ago that an admirals reefer in one of your auction may not what it intend to be (which was not very obvious) and you pulled it directly, I have known that your business is reliable.

Regards
Christian

[markus]

I just remembered that many, many years ago, when I lived in Hamburg and WAF was born, I introduced the forum to Helmut Weitze & his team one afternoon. This is when they registered and soon learnt that direct involvement made no sense at all.

There's always a screwed-up, envious collector somewhere who has the last word and knows everything better. Hiding behind an acronym (sometimes even incorrectly spelled! e.g. 'Weweslburg') and armed with a keyboard...

Dealers are better advised to focus on sourcing, selling and above all key account relations. That's how the real money is made.

Cheers,
Markus

[Geoff Walden]

For what it's worth - just an observation - there is a copy of this form in what used to be called the U.S. Army Military History Institute in Carlisle Barracks, PA, USA. It is in a box titled "Adolph Hitler Papers." The final folder in the box is labeled "Bradin Collection" and has copies and translations of this and several other relevant communications. I saw this several years ago and do not recall now if the form was a carbon copy, with the red GEHEIM stamp, or if it was a xerox copy. Certainly, the copy I brought back with me appears identical to the "second" copy (black and white) shown above. There is a notation at the bottom of the handwritten English translation that says "(2 copies)".

[markus]

For what it's worth - just an observation - there is a copy of this form in what used to be called the U.S. Army Military History Institute in Carlisle Barracks, PA, USA. It is in a box titled "Adolph Hitler Papers." The final folder in the box is labeled "Bradin Collection" and has copies and translations of this and several other relevant communications. I saw this several years ago and do not recall now if the form was a carbon copy, with the red GEHEIM stamp, or if it was a xerox copy. Certainly, the copy I brought back with me appears identical to the "second" copy (black and white) shown above. There is a notation at the bottom of the handwritten English translation that says "(2 copies)".

Excellent info! Finally something of substance. That's what's needed.

[Simon O.]

Agreed, as i said earlier, these thing often work themselves out.

[Weweslburg]

dear Jeremy ! as a longtime collector and dealer, I guess there is absolute no need to give an opinion about this document. If you read my first post, you will see that I already made some detailed infos. I mean it is just not worth to continue a discussion, because any third Reich dealer just knows that this doc is a joke. Compressore made several very good comments and there is nothing left to be added. We have here an official form by the Marinenachrichtendienst with a text on it...and now ? It is absolute no problem to purchase such a form sheet and to type a fantasy text on it.

One note to the comment of Marcus who wrote" As a native German I see no confusion, nor too many commas. I would expect no other wording from Göring". Well, I am a German, born in Germany, I live in Germany and I am amazed that an alledged native Germany does not recognize the bad German wording. If a German student would use "FIVE" commas in one sentence, he would get a grade 6 here in Germany. The misspelling is the word "auf Grund". The correct word is "Aufgrund". The second misspelling is the word "das" after the comma, because after a comma and in this context you need to write "dass". It is also strange that the dass was written with two "S" and not with a sharp "ß"

The sentence: "Die Äusserungen waren für mich derart überraschend und ernst, dass ich mich verpflichtet fühlte..... " is a joke and very, very confusing. Who wrote such a sentence ? A German ? NO ! "Das ich mich verpflichtet fühlte.... of what ? He ended the sentence without telling what his obligation is.

Further: Ich werde die Voraussetzungen Ihres "Erlasses" als gegeben ansehen... Erlaß ? What Erlaß (decree) ? Did Hitler made a decree ? NO ! WHERE is one single note about a decree ? It reads "Wonach Sie in gewissen Entscheidungen auf mich "verwiesen" hätten" Verwiesen means referred, not less not more. So, Hitler "mentioned" Göring.... there is no info about a "decree".

Well, the problem of many fakers is the very complex German language. Even Germans have problems with its own language which is normal. This document is a good example. By the way: there are many "well known" alledgely "histocric" relevant docs who were 100 % faked.

After Göring has read his bill of indictment he said: I rather need a translator than a lawyer". This says it all!

So what is your specific support for your opinion, Weweslburg, in response to Markus's info?

[max history]

...Further: Ich werde die Voraussetzungen Ihres "Erlasses" als gegeben ansehen... Erlaß ? What Erlaß (decree) ? Did Hitler made a decree ? NO ! WHERE is one single note about a decree ? It reads "Wonach Sie in gewissen Entscheidungen auf mich "verwiesen" hätten" Verwiesen means referred, not less not more. So, Hitler "mentioned" Göring.... there is no info about a "decree".

What about the decree of 29 June 1941 by which Hitler named Göring as his successor? This is referred to in Hitler's Political Testament of 29 April 1945:
"...Before my death I expel the former Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering from the party and deprive him of all rights which he may enjoy by virtue of the decree of 29 June 1941; and also by virtue of my statement in the Reichstag on 1 September 1939; I appoint in his place Grossadmiral Dönitz, President of the Reich and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces."

[Dietrich Maerz]

If a German student would use "FIVE" commas in one sentence, he would get a grade 6 here in Germany.

I will not comment on the document itself since I do not have enough information regarding the overall topic of possible forgery.
However, as a German with a very solid and long understanding of the German language I am not aware of any German grammar rule which limits the use of commata in composing German sentences. I am sure if I would take my time I would find legit German sentences with far more than five, the famous Schachtelsätze.(I had to use more than five everytime in translations of De Bello Gallico from Latin to German.) Maybe nowadays with some new political rules it is "verboten" to use more than 2 or 3, but not in my time and not in the books I have.

I also do not really see a great problem with the wording nor with the alleged mistakes (which are attributable to the one who typed the Funkspruch, not Göring. We do not know his level of proficiency in the final days of the Third Reich). I am not a Third Reich dealer and don't live in Germany anymore, but I am really with Markus here. To dismiss this Funkspruch based on the analysis of "Wewelsburg" would be in my opinion not very solid. There are a lot of legitimate documents of the Third Reich which would need to be dismissed also, because of strange sentences, typos, and too much commatas.

But I agree on one topic mentioned: non-German fakers make terrible mistakes in fake documents because the German language is not an easy one. And a huge amount of non-German speaking collectors fall for it day in and ay out.

The Erlass-topic has already be explained by max history, no need to to it again.


As an add-on a sentence of the German politician Stoiber (a Bavarian with a very soldi education):

"Es muss zu schaffen sein, meine Damen und Herren, wenn ich die CDU ansehe, die Repräsentanten dieser Partei an der Spitze, in den Ländern, in den Kommunen, dann bedarf es nur noch eines kleinen Sprühens sozusagen in die gludernde Lot, in die gludernde Flut, dass wir es schaffen können und deswegen in die lodernde Flut, wenn ich sagen darf und deswegen meine Damen und Herren."

Nine commata .... and if I would look I would find sentences with more, even far more!

[compressore]

After the publishing of Stoiber's sentence he was declared as insane by the German people and deported to the European Parliament in Brussels where he made a good career using such sentences in legislation... .but not a good example of proper German language. The text discussed here is indeed a bit confusing.

But it said to be from Goering....at this time an insane junkie high on morphine writing something under extreme stress. Maybe an explanation of the "weird" wording and grammar ?
This is not meant sarcastic but from a psychological point of view a possibility.

Regards
Christian

[Dietrich Maerz]

Stoiber might not be the best example of good German, agreed. How about this classic example - seven commata!

"Von diesen allen sind die Belger die tapfersten, deswegen weil sie von der Lebensweise und Bildung der römischen Provinz entfernt sind, keineswegs bei ihnen Kaufleute häufig ein- und ausgehen und das, was zur Verweichlichung der Gemüter dient, einführen, und weil sie am nächsten benachbart den Germanen sind, die jenseits des Rheines wohnen, mit denen sie ununterbrochen Krieg führen."

All I want to say is that there is no rule how many commata one is allowed to use in a German sentence. This is just plain misinformation. If somebody would have delivered that sentence above in the school, he would have gotten a "1" not a "6"!

[markus]

Just a quick one 'Weweslburg' (misspelled acronym):

You say you are a longtime dealer, handling thousands of documents:

What is:

Your company's name?
Your name?
Telephone number of your business?
Website?
Legal address?
USt /Tax I.D. Number?

Cheers,
Markus

[compressore]

Dietrich, the classic example is also not a good one. Translation of Juius Caesar "De Bello Gallico".
You would get a high grade in your Latin classes for this translation, but not in your German.
The text in the funkspruch is not of good Grman language style and grammar and it is not what you would expect from a clear thinking person.
If it's said that it's good style and correct, I have to disagree.

That said does not mean it is not from Goering....see my earlier comment.
Regards
Christian

[Simon O.]

Göring will have dictated or written a message that was handed on to a signaller or junior officer for encoding (The navy's M4 enigma i guess?) and transmitting. Would they have encoded the message in full or used abbreviatons for words where possible, which would seem logical. Message received encoded in Berlin, decrypted, typed (here's where the punctuation comes in) and then delivered.

[compressore]

Navy

Göring will have dictated or written a message that was handed on to a signaller or junior officer for encoding (The navy's M4 enigma i guess?) ......

That is what I am interested in and I am looking for more infos on the Marinenachrichtendienst responsible for the communications.

If a M4 was used, the MND must be seated on both, the Obersalzberg and the Fuehrerbunker as it has to be used at the sender and receiver.
The MND must be become responsible after July 44 as at this time the Army was (still) in charge of the communications as well as there were separate SS communication lines in the various Hitler's HQs.

And all the points you mentioned (who received, who decoded etc....) should be on the form as shown on the Keitel examples above in this thread (and may be on the original as those mentioned here are described as copies where maybe only the text is copied...)
Regards
Christian